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09/20/2004 12:38:46 PM · #1
Greetings...

I have been thinking too much this month about participating in the masters challenge. As I read through the previous discussions on the challenge itself, I started thinking even harder.

The "Masters" have been defined as photographers who have accumulated at least two ribbons. It has been said that these people understand the 'forumla' for winning photos here on DPChallenge. I also understand this forumla. In general, 'winning' here at DPC requires visible technical excellence that provides a reasonably high level of immediate visual impact at the same time. The third element, that must be present, is that you must bang the viewer over the head with the challenge topic. Failure to do this RARELY results in a top 10 finish.

During the last 8-10 months, I have let myself get away from shooting for 'technical excellence'. I have started working towards emotive value instead. "Emotive value" is definitely much more subjective than 'technical excellece' I believe. An overall mass appeal on emotive value seems to be much more difficult to achieve. There isn't much question about whether or not a photo is technically great, but whether an image has emotive appeal to any individual is based on a lot more factors. Sometimes, the emotional impact of a photo doesn't jump right out... maybe it takes a bit of time to grow on a viewer. Some of my own photos that I really like on an emotive level have taken time to 'appeal' to me. Some are more direct, but some simply didn't come to life with an initial impression. I understand the 'recipe' for high scoring photographs on DPChallenge, but I have not managed to figure out how to work the emotive value into that recipe. It's especially difficult when the challenge theme simply doesn't lend itself well to it. When a photo takes 'time' to sink in with a viewer, I don't think it can really 'survive' the challenge concept.

So....

In a masters challenge, I believe that the participants should enter a strong photograph with the intent of winning the challenge. The photographers are getting a chance to compete against a group of very strong competitors. I believe that competing in this challenge without the intent of being a contender for the 'win' would be a bit fruitless. This is my dilemma.

I would love to participate in this challenge. However, I have not shot anything this month that I believe fits the 'winning recipe' at all. Since it is a free study challenge, the weight of the challenge topic is removed, which does possibly open the doors for more emotive images.

I have three options:

1. Shoot a photo using the winning recipe and hope to win the challenge.

2. Submit my favorite shot of the month from my normal shooting agenda and hope that it doesn't get beat up too badly.

3. Skip the challenge.

I can't decide which result is more important to me at this point. Do I want to compete in this challenge and do well in the results? Do I want to submit my favorite photo and take the appropriate beating because it doesn't follow the winning recipe? Do I want to skip the challenge and watch what happens?

What would you do?


09/20/2004 12:50:05 PM · #2
I would take door number two, but that's what I do for every challenge. : )

I'm pretty sure all of these entries will get more than the usual number of comments, so it seems to present a good opportunity to discuss the relative merits of the styles of shooting you describe.

I personally would love to see more emotive and less "technically excellent" photos entered. Maybe seeing such shots entered by a "Master" as their "best of the month" will engender some respect ...
09/20/2004 12:50:19 PM · #3
I humbly, but loudly vote for # 2.

I'm reminded of this thread where frumoaznicul got beat up for questioning the placement of many of the top photos here.

I'm certainly noticing that the winning photos are normally very crisp, homogenized and marketable. Those aren't bad things, but I'm finding that as I continue with photography (it's only been about two months since I started) I will need to be wary of using dpc as my guide to discerning whether a photograph is 'good' or not.

Message edited by author 2004-09-20 12:51:00.
09/20/2004 12:54:15 PM · #4
Submit your favorite!
1. DPC is not a paid assignment, so it is a personal project and should reflect you personal vision.
2. As a leader (master) you need to help set a direction, even if it is not popular. There is a lot of photographic eye candy on the web today, but we cannot lose track of the power that documentation/reportage photography has to inform, educate, and hopefully change the viewers thoughts on subject. Do what is important, not what is popular.
09/20/2004 12:54:51 PM · #5
Hmmm very tough question. Would that I were in the position of having to consider it myself ;) but I can't say I dedicate anything approaching sufficient energy and effort to improving to expect decent results anytime soon!

Couple of possible thoughts.

It's been a long time since you moved away from the "formula" approach - you could take this as a fun chance to dip back into it just for a change and see if you still have what it takes to create a winning image against some of the new talent to emerge in this community. Given that the community is dynamic what was the winning formula 8-10 months ago may no longer be as winning as you think.

Or you could opt for something along the lines of number 2 - explore further the option of submitting a non-formulaic entry that achieves your goal to excel in the emotive arena. You've made strides in this area recently - share some of that learning with the DPC community and see how they take it.

3 seems a bit of a shame but it's your call!

Message edited by author 2004-09-20 12:55:44.
09/20/2004 12:55:20 PM · #6
Hi John,

Been thinking along the same lines too, and in a nutshell, do what I am doing - submitting YOUR favorite shot.
It's a chance to put up what YOU think is your best of the month. It's your signature.

When the voting is done, we see who did what, and your submission will be reflection of what pleases YOU, not you trying to please someone else.

09/20/2004 12:59:19 PM · #7
Well, I see your three options like this:

#1 Is effectively doing something just to please someone else, not yourself. Is your motive to please others enough to win a ribbon, or does it lie elsewhere?

#2 Is doing what you believe in, knowing that a specific group will not reward you. Do you want to please them, or share with them what matters to you?

#3 Is taking your ball and going home.
09/20/2004 12:59:24 PM · #8
If I am in a position to submit for the challenge, I would go through the images a ask myself if there's anyone of the images that I would like to show to a wide audience. I would go through them a few times and choose that one image I would like to show to the public as my work.
Whatever the outcome, talent will not go unrecognized.
09/20/2004 01:03:08 PM · #9
Oh, another reason for # 2...You've already won ribbons!

I made a few decisions on my entry for 'smoke' based on what would make the dpc-people happy and I ended up in 12th (which I'm happy with).

Once I'm satisfied that I'm capable of getting a few ribbons, I'll start submitting shots that I'm truly happy about (which I take for my own pleasure) with no concern for tickling the dpc-voters where they like to be tickled.
09/20/2004 01:03:30 PM · #10
I hope you choose #2 and that people notice. Maybe just a couple will see a different way to "compete".
09/20/2004 01:06:13 PM · #11
You can try number 1.5

Take a photo in the same emotive style that you are doing these days and put a little champions recepie in it. Try to take a shot that is appealing to the mass and yourself. It might be even harder to get you perfect shot but if you can do it than you are truly the master.
09/20/2004 01:12:58 PM · #12
I would choose option 2 as well and forget about what the photo scores. I'm no expert but I honestly think this site is experiencing some growing pains. We need talent like yours to be displayed so that others can see what an artistically rendered photograph looks like as opposed to some of the eye candy that so often wins. Yeah, I know I'm taking a risk in expressing such an opinion but some of the ribbon winning photos are so cliche. I will ad that I would like to see some of the ribbon winning photographers take some risks; Deviate from the "formula" - show us some work from your heart as opposed to what you know will win. Or let me put it another way. I wonder if strict adherance to the "formula" is squelching the talent/vision of some of the fine photographers participating on this site.
09/20/2004 01:17:29 PM · #13
When the masters challenge was announced I was wondering what approach to take and decided to take it relaxed. All it did was stimulate me to go and shoot more again. And now I have a shot which I really like, printed it out an A4 and it looks great, going to submit it to a magazine and to this challenge. That is why I would suggest to take option 2, do something you like, get a result you like, submit it and see what others think.

I would only choose option 3 if I would really have nothing worth publishing, nothing to be proud of.

I find option 1 usually killing for my creativity. Trying to please other people does not work for me. And does it give you any satisfaction to apply the formula and win, if you don't like it yourself ?
09/20/2004 01:18:35 PM · #14
You've been able to prove to the masses your photographic ability. So in that sense, you have nothing to prove. This gives you some "mental freedom" that I don't share.

People can look at your portolio and say, "Ah, Setz is a great photographer ... and now look, he's taking his craft in a different direction ... risky ... good for him".

If I try that, it'd be more like, "Ah Milo's got some ok stuff, but most of it sucks".

I'm with oskar ... go with 1.5
09/20/2004 01:20:10 PM · #15
Just looked back through what I have given you for scores. I have given you mostly 8's and 9's on your images that "haven't done as well". (These being some of the 4 and low five scores.)
The style of photography that you use on a daily basis is what I like most about your work.

#2 is your best choice. Stay true to what you like and not what you think other people would like. And like many have already stated, pick YOUR favorite image for the month. You never know, it might fit #1 as well.
09/20/2004 01:22:02 PM · #16
Go for #3 so I can finish one place higher :D
09/20/2004 01:24:25 PM · #17
Originally posted by Konador:

Go for #3 so I can finish one place higher :D


LOL, funny, too many correct answers already.
09/20/2004 01:27:32 PM · #18
Originally posted by Konador:

Go for #3 so I can finish one place higher :D


Konador is now trying to talk to everyone with few ribbons, telling them why they shouldn't participate. He is going to try the impossible, get the brown and the yellow border at the same time with the third place of three. There is only one problem, he somehow has to get 15 people to withdraw their shot which is much more diffucult than telling them not to enter to begin with.

Well Konador, good luck :)
09/20/2004 01:37:37 PM · #19
I keep the following tucked under my desk pad for easy reference:

Some low-value uses of time:
Things other people want you to do.
Things that have always been done this way.
Things you're not unusually good at doing.
Things you don't enjoy doing.
Things few other people are interested in.
Things that have already taken twice as long as you originally expected.

Some high-value uses of time:
Things that advance your overall purpose in life.
Things you have always wanted to do.
Innovative ways of doing things that promise to slash the time required and/or multiply the quality of results.
Things other people tell you can't be done.
Things for which it is now or never.

(Source = points from a workshop given by Judith Seiss on time management.)

I have often found this advice helpful in dislodging me from the fence when I come to a dilemma. My interpretation: go with #2, but not because everyone wants you to.

(Edited for the inevitable typos.)

Message edited by author 2004-09-20 19:59:50.
09/20/2004 07:48:46 PM · #20
It seems to me that the whole point behind having this ‘Masters’ challenge is to determine the ‘Master of Masters’. If you stipulate that each of the masterpieces that earned their creator’s way into the competition was photographed using the 'formula' that you mentioned, then the idea of the challenge is to determine the Master, or Masters, that can make the best use of the formula.

If the above is true, and if you go off and do something totally different (option #2), then it seems to me that you would be conceding the win to someone else in the challenge and not really competing at all. In that case, why bother entering the challenge at all? You can post your option #2 photos here at any time, and the community will probably love them.

Personally, I would rather see a photo wherein you attempt to combine options #1 and #2. In other words, try to win the thing your way. Maybe you can even succeed in taking the ‘formula’ to entirely new level.

Just my $0.02 worth.


09/20/2004 07:49:44 PM · #21
hmmm .. so there will be a Master with Brown 8-)
09/20/2004 07:58:19 PM · #22
The issue, of course, is that this 'masters' challenge will be voted on by every member of the site: thus it is no more a 'masters'' challenge than a restricted entry Open Challenge. You say you know how to win, John - well, I know what you mean - you know the kind of shot that will win. Personally, I'd leave it, unless you're a Heida, Kiwiness, or perhaps JJ.

Dull, but there you go.

E
09/20/2004 08:08:40 PM · #23
Look: any type photograph can win. While it is true that the most electrifying entries end up on top, all styles have a chance...but the presentation must be outstanding. Anything that is too subtle will not survive, but subtlety with a strong front has a chance. Example: a subtle topic with rich tones to invite the eyes for further inspection.
Often, it is essential that one give the challenge the alloted time for conception and execution. There may be a desire to control lighting for the added effect or control the comp by intentional means. But, then, even a simple shot with natural lighting can also win.

You can go with no. 2 or better, why not conceive an emotive theme and and consider controlling as many elements as you can without stealing from its integrity. It can be done.
09/20/2004 08:21:03 PM · #24
Go with 2. I'm sure it will be fine, & after all it is for an imaginary ribbon.
09/20/2004 08:31:13 PM · #25
Just enter a frickin' shot. If it does well, you can claim # 2, and if it sucks you can claim # 2. That's what everyone else does. lol.
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