Question about the recent symmetry challenge rules

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

03/02/2013 02:09:23 AM · #1

So,

I don't really mean to stir the pot, but I'm wondering about something.. (and I don't think this will stir the pot, because I'm pretty sure it's legal, or OK)

Looking at at quite a few of the top ten it's clear that either the photo was assembled from different photos, or that it has been 'chopped' in a way that is fairly different from what I understood the intention of the rules to be.

So is this OK, since it wasn't specifically noted that you couldn't do something outside of the challenge description? Or did I simply misunderstand the rules/description? Or was it perfectly ok to go full-on Expert with the editing, then do the flip?

Originally posted by DPChallenge 'Artificial Symmetry" challenge description:

Your photo must be made up of two or more copies of the same photo flipped to create a symmetrical image. Check out this thread to kick-start your creativity.

I think the discrepancy between description and rule set is a bummer.

Message edited by author 2013-03-03 01:57:21.

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

03/02/2013 02:48:36 AM · #2

as you can see in my entry, i understood the description the same way; it never came to my mind that i could use the full range of the expert ruleset. obviously, though, it was nowhere prohibited - and not following the challenge description maybe dnmc but is not DQable ( only a small portion of users cares for the description anyway)

Message edited by author 2013-03-02 02:49:16.

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

03/02/2013 03:53:53 AM · #3

I care.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

03/02/2013 05:06:42 AM · #4

Originally posted by Cory:

Looking at at quite a few of the top ten it's clear that either the photo was assembled from different photos, or that it has been 'chopped' in a way that is fairly different

I can see only one in TT that is clearly non-symmetrical. Which other ones did you mean?

PS I missed the bit about the same photo being flipped. I didn't use any Expert Editing rules but I can see now that most of other entries did, including 2 of the ribbons. But, as you know, challenge specific rules are not grounds for a DQ. And the voters, clearly, did not care.

Message edited by author 2013-03-02 05:21:29.

Alex_Petrini

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM

03/02/2013 05:15:53 AM · #5

Originally posted by MNet:

Originally posted by Cory:
Looking at at quite a few of the top ten it's clear that either the photo was assembled from different photos, or that it has been 'chopped' in a way that is fairly different

I can see only one in TT that is clearly non-symmetrical. Which other ones did you mean?

I guess he means that people created the images from several photos and then flipped the result. This thing IMO was not against the spirit of the challenge (even if an advanced ruleset with only the extra rule of flipping would have been better).

As you said in TT there was only one image that pushed the concept too far.

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

03/02/2013 05:27:54 AM · #6

The challenge ran under the expert rule set........The description was misleading once again! I don't know why we can't have challenges without a challenge description! Just give us a challenge title and let us interpret and display!

timfythetoo

Apple iPhone 13 Pro

03/02/2013 05:48:59 AM · #7

I used the expert rule set to chop my image apart some. What I ended up doing was flipping and blending pieces in the picture. It was all the same picture, just multiple parts done at different times in the edit process. But then I learned long ago that challenge description really doesn't mean much of anything.

GinaRothfels

Olympus 8mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko Digital ED Fisheye PRO Lens

03/02/2013 06:09:56 AM · #8

Originally posted by Stagolee:

The challenge description was not misleading - the rule set just allowed things that weren't intended. The description really defined this challenge and there was only one photo that totally failed to meet it. That photo finished last, so clearly the voters go it too. Most (if not all) of the entries would not have been created without the description.

In some cases no descriptions are given. Different challenges should please different people because there's no pleasing everyone!

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

03/02/2013 07:37:17 AM · #9

There was much discussion about this during the challenge. You can't give folks the expert rule set and expect them to ignore it.

FourPointX

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/02/2013 08:56:45 AM · #10

after i submitted this image for "point of color" i got a validation request, which took a while to get the results of. it passed. much much later in a similar thread, i mentioned the entry to which sc replied "it was a close vote, passing validation because essentially, although it violated the spirit of the challenge there was no illegal technique used to process the picture"

Lydia

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

03/02/2013 08:49:17 PM · #11

Descriptions are not enforced by SC, but only by the diligent voters (unless there's a specific extra rule to that challenge).

Rule sets are enforced by SC.

I knew this would be a problem in this challenge ... the whole "use one image and flip it two or more times" thing... once I saw that Flip N Blend stuff going on.

And then I saw entries where more than one image was used to create a new image and then that image was flipped two or more times...

Expert Editing is a bugger to "police" for the voters, but much easier for SC.

So... there you have it.

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

03/03/2013 12:43:54 AM · #12

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by Stagolee:
The challenge ran under the expert rule set........The description was misleading once again! I don't know why we can't have challenges without a challenge description! Just give us a challenge title and let us interpret and display!

The challenge description was not misleading - the rule set just allowed things that weren't intended. The description really defined this challenge and there was only one photo that totally failed to meet it. That photo finished last, so clearly the voters go it too. Most (if not all) of the entries would not have been created without the description.

In some cases no descriptions are given. Different challenges should please different people because there's no pleasing everyone!

Well we will just have to agree to disagree.

To quote the description : Your photo must be made up of two or more copies of the same photo flipped to create a symmetrical image.

To me the use of the word must was very misleading!

MattO

Nikon D4

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

03/03/2013 01:20:02 AM · #13

Sadly there wasn't the "extra rule" that not following the description is a DQable offense. Because clearly the Blue isn't flipped at all. Just expertly edited to make it symmetrical. I really wish when the challenges had a qualifying description that it was always a DQable offense to not follow them.

Judi

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

03/03/2013 01:24:00 AM · #14

Originally posted by MattO:

Excuse me?

MattO

Nikon D4

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

03/03/2013 01:25:45 AM · #15

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by MattO:
Sadly there wasn't the "extra rule" that not following the description is a DQable offense. Because clearly the Blue isn't flipped at all. Just expertly edited to make it symmetrical. I really wish when the challenges had a qualifying description that it was always a DQable offense to not follow them.

Excuse me?

Unless you took half a horse photo for the middle image and flipped the image to align and make the other half match, then by the description I don't think you followed the rules. Again, my opinion and means nothing.

Matt

Judi

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

03/03/2013 01:30:48 AM · #16

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by MattO:
Sadly there wasn't the "extra rule" that not following the description is a DQable offense. Because clearly the Blue isn't flipped at all. Just expertly edited to make it symmetrical. I really wish when the challenges had a qualifying description that it was always a DQable offense to not follow them.

Excuse me?

Unless you took half a horse photo for the middle image and flipped the image to align and make the other half match, then by the description I don't think you followed the rules. Again, my opinion and means nothing.

Matt

There was nothing to say we couldn't create the original photo. The original image that I created was 3.5 horses. I then flipped the image. So please don't tell me that I didn't flip the image. Just the same way as third place photographed the tree and then flipped half the tree. And basically every other image except last place flipped their image. Some may have flipped more than once but they have been flipped.

I am not arguing the rules in this challenge....ohwever do NOT tell me that I didn't flip my image when I did.

Just my opinion. :)

Message edited by author 2013-03-03 01:31:21.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

03/03/2013 01:37:18 AM · #17

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by MattO:
Sadly there wasn't the "extra rule" that not following the description is a DQable offense. Because clearly the Blue isn't flipped at all. Just expertly edited to make it symmetrical. I really wish when the challenges had a qualifying description that it was always a DQable offense to not follow them.

Excuse me?

Unless you took half a horse photo for the middle image and flipped the image to align and make the other half match, then by the description I don't think you followed the rules. Again, my opinion and means nothing.

Matt

There was nothing to say we couldn't create the original photo. The original image that I created was 3.5 horses. I then flipped the image. So please don't tell me that I didn't flip the image. Just the same way as third place photographed the tree and then flipped half the tree. And basically every other image except last place flipped their image. Some may have flipped more than once but they have been flipped.

I am not arguing the rules in this challenge....ohwever do NOT tell me that I didn't flip my image when I did.

Just my opinion. :)

Obviously, it's a great image - but I do think your comment illustrates the issue quite clearly - yours was based upon a created image, whereas the 3rd place photo was based on a captured image.

I still like it, and don't want to detract from such a wonderful image, so don't think I'm bothering with such nonsense, it's a great image - but the description was horribly misleading - if I hadn't read that I would have probably entered as I didn't shoot anything that would work well as a single image flipped and chose not to enter on that basis.

*shrug*

Message edited by author 2013-03-03 01:38:54.

MattO

Nikon D4

03/03/2013 01:39:16 AM · #18

Sorry Judi, my full thought didn't make it from brain to the keyboard.

What I meant was I took the challenge to be using an image that you took then flipped to create the symmetry, not one that was created from several others then flipped. I went through most of the challenge entries during voting and yours in the only one that stood out to be an image that was "made" rather then photographed and flipped. Sure using expert was allowed, but by the way the descriptions is reading to me(and obviously others) is that the expert editing was used to avoid DQ for creating objects in the image that weren't there in advanced ruleset, not to make up an original using expert rules then crop and flip to create the image.

Message edited by author 2013-03-03 01:40:51.

03/03/2013 01:44:37 AM · #19

I wish all this energy was channeled into taking better photos! I am calling to abolish all rules! Why have them at all?? If the voters don't consider digital art photography they will vote it down! Isn't it the case??

03/03/2013 01:45:08 AM · #20

Originally posted by MNet:

Great idea - try Flickr.

03/03/2013 01:45:31 AM · #21

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MNet:
I wish all this energy was channeled into taking better photos! I am calling to abolish all rules! Why have them at all?? If the voters don't consider digital art photography they will vote it down! Isn't it the case??

Great idea - try Flickr.

Why not DPC???

03/03/2013 01:47:03 AM · #22

Originally posted by MNet:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MNet:
I wish all this energy was channeled into taking better photos! I am calling to abolish all rules! Why have them at all?? If the voters don't consider digital art photography they will vote it down! Isn't it the case??

Great idea - try Flickr.

Why not DPC???

Because we have rules.

03/03/2013 01:48:02 AM · #23

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MNet:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MNet:
I wish all this energy was channeled into taking better photos! I am calling to abolish all rules! Why have them at all?? If the voters don't consider digital art photography they will vote it down! Isn't it the case??

Great idea - try Flickr.

Why not DPC???

Because we have rules.

So had nazis.

Judi

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

03/03/2013 01:49:30 AM · #24

Originally posted by MattO:

I understand what you are saying and I agree. I also believe that if that was how it was meant to be then it should have been made an Advanced editing rule set and then an extra rule (yellow flag) applied to state the image is to be flipped once onto extra canvas to allow a symmetrical result. That would have made it easier for not only me but for many others to understand and follow accordingly.

In this particular case I thought about what type of image would look great put into a symmetrical result and this is what I came up with. I apologize if anyone feels I broke the spirit of the challenge. I did not intend for that happen....I fully believed that what I did was not only legal but within the spirit of the challenge.