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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> If it happened to them... it can happen to anyone.
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10/29/2012 09:05:35 AM · #1
NM Court Upholds verdict against photographer who refused to photograph same-sex ceremony against their religious beliefs.

While some of you reading this may be for gay marriage, this is still wrong on so many levels. Especially since the photographer found the couple someone else willing to do the ceremony and no actual harm was done (except to the defendant)

//apapromotions.com/commonsense/2012/07/27/elane-photography-sexual-orientation-discrimination-verdict-upheld-by-nm-court-of-appeals/

This really does NOT belong in RANT, but in business, but the SC moved it incorrectly. It wasn't a rant, but an observation that any belief -- religious or otherwise -- can be disregarded by the courts.

Message edited by author 2012-11-05 14:17:01.
10/29/2012 09:12:12 AM · #2
It's about discrimination, not about simply not wanting to cover a ceremony.
10/29/2012 09:14:34 AM · #3
seriously...the court actually upheld that...can you say appeal....That photographer should not have to pay a dime!!!! Come on people. A buisness can refuse service to anyone that they choose. I wouldnt be surprised if a bar was sued for refusing service to someone that has already had too much...its discrimating against the drunks
10/29/2012 09:15:20 AM · #4
Originally posted by Alexkc:

It's about discrimination, not about simply not wanting to cover a ceremony.

Bingo.
If the LGBT community wasn't protected under the statutes of the law and Elane photography specifically mentioned they do Christian weddings only as opposed to after the fact, none of this would have happened.

Since they discriminated after the fact, they should have lost, and did.
10/29/2012 09:16:36 AM · #5
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Come on people. A buisness can refuse service to anyone that they choose. I wouldnt be surprised if a bar was sued for refusing service to someone that has already had too much...its discrimating against the drunks

No they can't. You can't refuse service to someone simply because they're black, gay, Mexican, .....

Drunks aren't a protected class.
10/29/2012 09:19:12 AM · #6
I was using the drunk thing as an example
10/29/2012 09:22:19 AM · #7
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

A buisness can refuse service to anyone that they choose.


We've been here before of course but i don't believe that should be the case. I think last time i mentioned the signs which were popular in London in the 50's saying 'No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs' and discrimination laws were set up, quite rightly, to put an end to that sort of thing. If you believe that businesses can refuse service to anyone that they choose then you are basically saying that shops could put these signs up or that bus companies could have segregated areas - blacks at the back perhaps. That's fine if you believe that but i tend to go with the view that discrimination laws are valuable and are there to protect minorities who have been horrifically abused and discriminated against in the past.
10/29/2012 09:23:51 AM · #8
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

I was using the drunk thing as an example


Indeed, it's just a very bad example which has very little in common with the issue. As has been pointed out, a better example might be ethnic minorities perhaps.
10/29/2012 09:24:48 AM · #9
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

I was using the drunk thing as an example
I know, it was a terrible example because it has no bearing on the article. Intoxicated people don't have constitutional rights based on them being intoxicated.
10/29/2012 09:26:38 AM · #10
That's a tough case, in my opinion.
I'm not against gay marriage, I say, if it makes you happy, go for it!

And I wouldn't have a problem photographing a gay marriage, or gay couple, just as I wouldn't anyone else.

But... I don't think the business should have been sued either, especially considering they found someone else willing and competent enough to do the job.
On the other hand, I also see the discrimination fact.

So it's hard to draw the line.

But, I wouldn't want someone photographing a special event like that for me if they weren't happy doing it, if they didn't have their full heart in it... because the pictures would turn out mediocre at best, IMO.
10/29/2012 09:35:29 AM · #11
Come on folks... This is New Mexico, you know, the place where we're proud of Navajo Preference Hiring policies, and where we give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants.

I personally think the photographer met their obligation by finding an alternative solution, but if they were smart they just would have sub-contracted the willing shooter.
10/29/2012 09:37:36 AM · #12
Originally posted by rooum:



We've been here before of course but i don't believe that should be the case. I think last time i mentioned the signs which were popular in London in the 50's saying 'No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs' and discrimination laws were set up, quite rightly, to put an end to that sort of thing.


Unless of course, you're white, then it's basically open season.

I support non-discrimination, I do not support any special treatment of any group for any reason. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world. (yet?)
10/29/2012 09:38:30 AM · #13
The restauraunts in the 50's and 60's and before that had signs saying no blacks etc. They did not offer an alternative...they just said well you can't come in here. This photog got this gay couple an alternative. This photog found someone to do the shoot. Personally if a gay couple want to get married let em it doesnt truly bother me even though I don't understand it. I would not personally want to shoot a gay wedding.
10/29/2012 09:41:33 AM · #14
Originally posted by Cory:



Unless of course, you're white, then it's basically open season.


Oh yes, i'd forgotten of the plight of the white Christian middle class male. Poor poor thing. It must be dreadful to be so horribly discriminated against. (insert smirk and eye-roll emoticon here)

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 09:43:37.
10/29/2012 09:42:42 AM · #15
From a legal perspective, the savvy racist or bigot usually finds some other reason to fire, not hire, or disassociate with "undesirable(in their eyes)" groups. These people made the mistake of putting their cards on the table.

Probably should have just said, "sorry-we are booked, here are three other names."(but kept their mouths shut as to motive)

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 09:43:30.
10/29/2012 09:57:59 AM · #16
people, in this country at least, are lawsuit-happy, anything to get some bucks in their pocket and maybe 15 minutes of fame in the process.
I don't really buy the "restaurant in the 50's analagy" either. In the 50's in the south in America, a black person saw that sign at every restaurant, it wasn't just one restaurant with a bunch of others that were open to everyone.
10/29/2012 09:59:32 AM · #17
Originally posted by Cory:

Come on folks... This is New Mexico, you know, the place where we're proud of Navajo Preference Hiring policies, and where we give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants.


I knew it had to be NM and didn't really shock me in the least. I don't know all the particulars about what happened but just seems wrong on both sides.
10/29/2012 10:02:58 AM · #18
Originally posted by rooum:

Originally posted by Cory:



Unless of course, you're white, then it's basically open season.


Oh yes, i'd forgotten of the plight of the white Christian middle class male. Poor poor thing. It must be dreadful to be so horribly discriminated against. (insert smirk and eye-roll emoticon here)


First time you're told you've been passed over for a job because you're white, after a lifetime of being told that racism is wrong, and I think you'd probably have a little bit more of a sore-spot here.

Oh, and I'm not Christian, I think it rather amusing that you equate white with Christian. I suppose you think all black people love fried chicken with waffles and watermelon too?

As I said, racism is alive and well, unfortunately it's ok as long as the recipient is white - but I suppose, from your response, you just think I'm imagining things. Crazy white folks do that all the time ya know...

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 10:04:52.
10/29/2012 10:03:43 AM · #19
Originally posted by blindjustice:

From a legal perspective, the savvy racist or bigot usually finds some other reason to fire, not hire, or disassociate with "undesirable(in their eyes)" groups. These people made the mistake of putting their cards on the table.

Probably should have just said, "sorry-we are booked, here are three other names."(but kept their mouths shut as to motive)


Yep, consider this proof that honesty doesn't pay. The world rewards deceit and deception.
10/29/2012 10:13:40 AM · #20
Originally posted by Cory:



Oh, and I'm not Christian, I think it rather amusing that you equate white with Christian. I suppose you think all black people love fried chicken with waffles and watermelon too?


I know you're not Christian Cory. I've known you long enough on DPC to know that. I was being slightly tongue in cheek and mocking the current trend of white Christians to plead persecution. Recently, in the UK, we had the astounding situation of a former Bishop of Canterbury saying that the plight of Christians who oppose gay marriage was comparable to the persecution of the Jews during WWII which was quite amazing in its crassness. Anyway, sorry i touched on a sore spot for you. Hopefully you'll get a job soon. Good luck!
10/29/2012 10:15:53 AM · #21
Originally posted by Cory:

Yep, consider this proof that honesty doesn't pay. The world rewards deceit and deception.

Just look at the banking industry ...
10/29/2012 10:18:56 AM · #22
I fear this will happen to me one day...

I feel like I would be too uncomfortable to shoot a gay/lesbian marriage for me. (Let the bashing begin).

But hear me out. I've been a Christian since I was in middle school. I have my views on certain issues such as gay/lesbian marriages. But as far as I am concerned the people who are for gay/lesbian marriages, they have just as much of a right to have an opinion as I do and I don't think that the government should dictate how I/they feel about the issues.

That being said, I honestly don't think I could do the wedding either and I don't blame the photographers for refusing the service.
10/29/2012 10:24:45 AM · #23
Originally posted by rooum:

Originally posted by Cory:



Oh, and I'm not Christian, I think it rather amusing that you equate white with Christian. I suppose you think all black people love fried chicken with waffles and watermelon too?


I know you're not Christian Cory. I've known you long enough on DPC to know that. I was being slightly tongue in cheek and mocking the current trend of white Christians to plead persecution. Recently, in the UK, we had the astounding situation of a former Bishop of Canterbury saying that the plight of Christians who oppose gay marriage was comparable to the persecution of the Jews during WWII which was quite amazing in its crassness. Anyway, sorry i touched on a sore spot for you. Hopefully you'll get a job soon. Good luck!


Heh :) No worries, I'm not really sensitive about it, but if I don't make some noise when this comes up it's not likely that anyone will really understand.

Besides, frankly I'd rather not compete for jobs with Navajo Preference, they can honestly keep every damned one of them as far as I'm concerned - one time was enough for me. And of course, there's the fact I've never really had any problems finding employment.

My real problem is the two-faced nature of the world, and yes, it really does bother me. We're told that racism is wrong, but then you find out about Navajo Preference hiring, and realize that whites are almost always the only ones to face "hate crime enhancements", etc. The fact is racism is OK, but only as long as you're discriminating against a white person, since somehow it's seen as "leveling the playing field", or that somehow it's impossible to discriminate against someone because they're white. Your comment basically proves my point, the entire tone is that I'm somehow being silly for bringing up something that is very real, and IMO a serious problem. Am I mad or impassioned? Nah, but the disconnect between what we're told and what is practiced is something that will continue to bother me.

As for comparing anything to the persecution of the Jewish people by the Nazis is pretty much asking to get kicked in the nuts, he might be right in some respects, but that analogy was pure poison for his argument.
10/29/2012 10:28:13 AM · #24
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:

I fear this will happen to me one day...

I feel like I would be too uncomfortable to shoot a gay/lesbian marriage for me. (Let the bashing begin).

But hear me out. I've been a Christian since I was in middle school. I have my views on certain issues such as gay/lesbian marriages. But as far as I am concerned the people who are for gay/lesbian marriages, they have just as much of a right to have an opinion as I do and I don't think that the government should dictate how I/they feel about the issues.

That being said, I honestly don't think I could do the wedding either and I don't blame the photographers for refusing the service.


1. Your beliefs are silly and perpetuate harmful attitudes towards others, as they prop up bad habits that are centuries old.

2. I don't blame you, I just feel sorry for you.

3. You need to learn to lie, and lie well, or life will chew you up and spit you out. (I know, that's "wrong" too, but you really are going to have to choose one evil or the other)
10/29/2012 10:32:31 AM · #25
Originally posted by Cory:

1. Your beliefs are silly


Forgive me for getting mad at this one.... You have no right to talk about someone's religion in that manner and I feel like THAT is harmful. Not the other way around...
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