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04/17/2012 08:29:43 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Science cannot answer questions that many if not most people deem important. What is my purpose? Are there such things as good and evil? What is right behavior? Is there a God? Why does the universe exist? What is reality? |
fundamentally you are asking questions that science CAN'T answer. the questions are too subjective.
we shouldn't be mixing science and philosophy.
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04/17/2012 09:12:25 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Science cannot answer questions that many if not most people deem important. What is my purpose? Are there such things as good and evil? What is right behavior? Is there a God? Why does the universe exist? What is reality? |
fundamentally you are asking questions that science CAN'T answer. the questions are too subjective.
we shouldn't be mixing science and philosophy. |
Whether those questions are subjective or objective is a question unto itself. :). Otherwise we are of alike mind and I agree that science and philosophy operate in different realms. Perhaps it is the meaning of Ed's phrase "the world around us". If he only means the nuts and bolts of the world, the atoms, the forces, then his assertion that science is the ONE way to truth has merit, but if we think of the world in a larger context; one of right and wrong, purposes and meanings, then his statement is shortsighted. |
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04/17/2012 09:19:11 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
we shouldn't be mixing science and philosophy. |
The word "science" as used today is relatively modern coinage, and has only been around for a couple of centuries. Before that, what we call a scientist was a practitioner of "Natural Philosophy" -- meaning (literally, from the Greek) a love of learning about the natural ("material") world. |
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04/17/2012 10:06:02 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I disagree. We have faith in the scientific method, but it is a faith. |
faith has nothing to do with it. the scientific method is a means of formulating and testing theory. if you believe your experiment will work, you may introduce bias into your interpretation of the results.
belief and faith have no part in the scientific method and rightly so.
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04/18/2012 12:15:02 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
What blows me away is that anyone ever has to explain this even on this level. |
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
--H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) |
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04/18/2012 12:25:21 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
K10's description of science is fair. It is powerful. The scientific method is perhaps the most powerful discovery of the last millenia if not civilization. However, it is not all powerful (and that's where I tend to have a beef). Science cannot answer questions that many if not most people deem important. What is my purpose? Are there such things as good and evil? What is right behavior? Is there a God? Why does the universe exist? What is reality? (Just a limited example.) The more people sell Science as the tool for all questions, the more I get uncomfortable. The more people think questions not answered by Science are unimportant, the more I get uncomfortable. |
Most thinking people don't claim that science can answer all questions.......that's way to black & white. I've seen so many questions answered, and new ones asked, in my lifetime that I, and many other people are perfectly comfortable with saying, "I don't know....". Whether the questions will be answered in our lifetime is anyone's guess. Also, where your faith skews your thinking as to what is important is a perspective thing. Really, "Why am I here?" doesn't much matter to me. I'd rather concentrate on *what* I'm doing while here than why. Sure, I may ponder whether or not I have any significance in the big picture, but does it really matter for most of my life? If that makes you uncomfortable, why is that? My beliefs shouldn't concern you in the slightest as long as I don't impinge on your physical existence.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The other thought is generally good natured, but I always have to take note that Jeb loves saying that he would never try to get someone to take on his view, but he says it an awful lot and with passion while getting upset with people who don't see life that way... |
See, that's just it. I get frustrated.....a lot.....with the whole religion deal 'cause it makes no sense to me because of a bunch of *major* flaws in basic premise. I would like answers to what you try to sell me, yet all I get is that I have to have faith. I have faith in the brakes on my car because I have been across the brake system personally.....why am I supposed to have faith in your way when you can't give me one good reason to do so? All I'm saying is that for the same reason that you have faith, you *have* to be prepared for the possibility that you're wrong or completely misinformed. Maybe there is no God.
One: If I'm going to be judged by God, so be it, I'll take my chances with the way I've lived, my thoughts and decisions. What gives YOU, who are *NOT* God, the right to tell me how to love, or that my morality is questionable or suspect because I don't see it your way.
Two: There are so many denominations, sects, cults, what have you, that *all* think they have the right answer. All the rest of y'all are wrong, burn in Hell. That is *SO* ridiculous and arrogant I cannot comprehend it. If we're all God's children, of which of course, no one can offer up one iota of proof, then why aren't we all under his umbrella?
Lastly, I truly have a ton of problems with the abuse of power, position, finances, and trust that most religions have running rampant amongst the *humans* that run them. It's just life, with someone's ideas merged into a group of like-minded people, who all too often abuse the power that a group can generate.
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04/18/2012 01:07:01 PM · #32 |
| I understand your feelings Jeb and don't think they are uncommon. We've been down those roads more than once and I don't need to dominate your thread by rehashing them. I was just making note that you borderline do exactly what you don't like others doing. If you aren't trying to get people to rally to your cause or live in a way that doesn't impinge on your lifestyle at all(a demand you are making of them), then why post? That can be a rhetorical question and isn't one you need to answer. |
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04/18/2012 03:53:00 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...Why does the universe exist?... |
I thought we were on a big, flat disc, balanced on a giant turtle's back?
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04/18/2012 03:55:00 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...trying to get people to rally to your cause or live in a way that doesn't impinge on your lifestyle at all(a demand you are making of them), then why post?... |
It peeves me off when churches let out and cause a mini traffic jam, and large lines at the brunch buffets.
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04/18/2012 04:15:20 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...Why does the universe exist?... |
I thought we were on a big, flat disc, balanced on a giant turtle's back? |
It's the rotation of the disc that keeps it from tilting, and the ground effect of the movement over the turtle's shell stops it from drifting off. Do try to get your facts right or people will be carping on about blind faith and non-ascertainable dogma. Like they know. The chicken clucks, brother. |
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04/18/2012 04:25:42 PM · #36 |
Maybe I'm being blind or obtuse, but I can't offhand recall any instance of our religious members using a DPChallenge thread as a soapbox for proselytizing... I HAVE, on the other hand, seen non-believers work very hard in these threads to pull the believers down, to show them how "ridiculous" their faith is. Just a little food for thought...
R.
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04/18/2012 04:58:58 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Maybe I'm being blind or obtuse, but I can't offhand recall any instance of our religious members using a DPChallenge thread as a soapbox for proselytizing... I HAVE, on the other hand, seen non-believers work very hard in these threads to pull the believers down, to show them how "ridiculous" their faith is. Just a little food for thought...
R. |
But, who starts it? ;D |
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04/18/2012 05:50:51 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Maybe I'm being blind or obtuse, but I can't offhand recall any instance of our religious members using a DPChallenge thread as a soapbox for proselytizing... I HAVE, on the other hand, seen non-believers work very hard in these threads to pull the believers down, to show them how "ridiculous" their faith is. Just a little food for thought...
R. |
I think it's more of a case of people who are upset by the way believers take such a tone, attitude, what have you when it comes to non-acceptance of others' ways or their choice not to believe. Or their unwavering feeling, that often smacks of superiority, that their way is the only way.
I remember Jason in a thread trying to put forth the idea that without some sort of God system that there was no possibility for any sense of morality. That chafes, that sucks, and it's blatantly not the case. I do believe that he has since recanted, or at least backed off from stating that point of view out loud, but it's exactly that kind of thing that sparks people to want to chip away at their system, which at risk of sounding like a broken record AGAIN.......has *ZERO* provenance. It's more of a case of, "No, we don't believe what you do, and stop badgering us 'cause we'll ask you *really* pointed and in-depth questions that you cannot answer.". Then it's off to the races....
When someone takes the stance that what I'm doing is immoral, such as wanting to make love to my mate, and tells me it's a sin and that I'm going to burn in Hell because we choose to use contraception rather than bring an unwanted child into the world, yeah......you're damn skippy I'm going to bark back. I don't care what you want to believe......just stay out of my life, and the lives of my friends if you're going to tell me I'm wrong. I don't care if we don't agree.....that's fine, but it's not wrong, just different.
Yes, it takes two to tango, but I think you'll find that most or the believer/non-believer fights break out when a believer decides that something someone else is doing needs his/her intervention.....see the gay marriage and/or the birth control rant for details.
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04/18/2012 05:56:21 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I understand your feelings Jeb and don't think they are uncommon. We've been down those roads more than once and I don't need to dominate your thread by rehashing them. I was just making note that you borderline do exactly what you don't like others doing. If you aren't trying to get people to rally to your cause or live in a way that doesn't impinge on your lifestyle at all(a demand you are making of them), then why post? That can be a rhetorical question and isn't one you need to answer. |
What cause would that be? What people am I trying to rally?
This is pretty much what I'm talking about, Jason. I'm just sort of curious about views and opinions from people who wander through life without the laws and promises of religion(s).....how they think and feel about their fellow man, and what inspires and motivates them.
It's not a group, sect, movement........there's no secret handshake, no gods or idols to swear fealty to, I'm just curious as to how some of the rest manage to sidestep all this religious tide that's pretty much always in our faces. I honestly don't think you have much to say here.......do you?
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04/18/2012 05:58:50 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I remember Jason in a thread trying to put forth the idea that without some sort of God system that there was no possibility for any sense of morality. |
This is a misquote. The argument was about an objective morality. I have never ever argued that non-religious people don't have moral systems.
Message edited by author 2012-04-18 17:59:00. |
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04/18/2012 06:04:01 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I remember Jason in a thread trying to put forth the idea that without some sort of God system that there was no possibility for any sense of morality. |
This is a misquote. The argument was about an objective morality. I have never ever argued that non-religious people don't have moral systems. |
I wish I had the time... I seem to recall you saying something to the effect that Atheists by their very nature were immoral, or was it amoral...I forget.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-04-18 18:15:05. |
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04/18/2012 06:11:47 PM · #42 |
"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another, and I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!"
-Tom Lehrer (intro to National Brotherhood Week, 1965) |
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04/18/2012 06:20:30 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I remember Jason in a thread trying to put forth the idea that without some sort of God system that there was no possibility for any sense of morality. |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This is a misquote. The argument was about an objective morality. I have never ever argued that non-religious people don't have moral systems. |
Umm.....I don't think so. You basically brought forth the whole idea, and I'm sure this is boiling it down some, that without a god to answer to, what was the motivation to have any morality. I really don't remember exactly which thread when, but certainly someone else may remember that part of the discussion.
Part of the thing that governs my actions is that I feel this is the life.......I'm not being careful for the eternal reward. It seems hypocritical to behave properly from fear or an offered reward. How about just being good because it's a finer way to be?
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04/18/2012 06:48:00 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Part of the thing that governs my actions is that I feel this is the life.......I'm not being careful for the eternal reward. It seems hypocritical to behave properly from fear or an offered reward. How about just being good because it's a finer way to be? |
That might've been me. I remember it from "Questions to ask a " Christian or Atheist. One of those threads. More of arguing against an exclusive material universe and objective morality.
Of course, I've learned more since then and I hope I'm humbled from those experiences. |
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04/18/2012 07:12:30 PM · #45 |
Jason never said that! I've been following these threads forever, watching you people put words in his mouth and thoughts in his head that he has never claimed as his own. He's a very rational, reasonable, easy-going guy who happens to believe in God. He's never claimed that all morality comes from religion. He HAS taken the position that it's not POSSIBLE to have an objective morality without a God, but that's not even close to the same thing. It haunts me the way some of y'all can't separate those concepts, see how different they are.
And as for the supposed "tone" Jason uses, well, Jeb, I humbly submit that this is a function of your perception more than it is of his affect in presenting his position.
R.
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04/18/2012 07:13:47 PM · #46 |
I'm open to being quoted. I think you guys are either mistaken or I suppose it's possible if the quote is from 2006 and I've either modified my position or found better ways to say things. I'll wait for the quotes. I'd hate to be accused if there is no proof. There have been a rash of articles on Zite about how faulty our memories are. Certainly this isn't the first time someone has accused me on these threads of thinking such a thing, but I've objected those times as well.
Message edited by author 2012-04-18 19:15:06. |
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04/18/2012 07:21:33 PM · #47 |
| Jeb, I think the two groups we can be divided into are the "don't care/not important" and "do care/is important" groups. As a "don't care" you go around telling the "do cares" that they need to mellow out because, after all, these concerns are not as important as they think they are. The "do cares" feel otherwise and think the concerns ARE very important. To use a scientific analogy (note: ANALOGY), just think about global warming. There are those who say it's overblown and are highly annoyed when people want them to stop driving their Hummers or turn their air conditioning down. There are others who think it's so important that they need to tell YOU to change your behavior. Regardless of who is right or wrong (and ignoring whatever evidence is available) we can all see that conflict is bound to arise. You can't blame the "don't cares" who just want to be left alone to do what they want and you can't blame the "do cares" because they feel the cause is so important to everybody that they need to get the word out. |
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04/18/2012 07:32:42 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Jason never said that! I've been following these threads forever, watching you people put words in his mouth and thoughts in his head that he has never claimed as his own. He's a very rational, reasonable, easy-going guy who happens to believe in God. He's never claimed that all morality comes from religion. He HAS taken the position that it's not POSSIBLE to have an objective morality without a God, but that's not even close to the same thing. It haunts me the way some of y'all can't separate those concepts, see how different they are.
And as for the supposed "tone" Jason uses, well, Jeb, I humbly submit that this is a function of your perception more than it is of his affect in presenting his position.
R. |
Well...I disagree, though my memory is certainly not without fault. It definitely stuck with me at the time. I'll recant if it's going to make anyone nuts, but moreso simply because it's not that important to me to pore through a couple thousand posts to prove my point.
What's with the "you people" and this kind of hostile approach? Geez, Robert......settle down. Jason seems less torqued about this than you. He's a big boy......he can tell me to go piss up a rope if he's upset with me.
BTW, my tone comment was a lot less directed at Jason, than the bodies of believers who find themselves feeling and acting superior due to "Their Way". I've just experienced too many high-handed and condescending attitudes from people who are supposedly "good people, doing God's work" and it's not pretty. Having been in places where people are on site to help and give, it's pretty disgusting the way they feel that they're better than the people they're "helping".
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04/18/2012 07:37:05 PM · #49 |
| If we narrow it down to searching for "amoral" and "DrAchoo" we only have to go through 11420 posts! That's not too bad. Ask Ray to do it. He thinks the same thing. |
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04/18/2012 07:44:24 PM · #50 |
I said "you people" because you're not the only one (or even the worst transgressor), Jeb. In the second paragraph, I address you specifically. THAT one's directed at you in particular.
"Torqued"? Sure I'm torqued, and not about what Jason's suffering, either. I agree, he's a big boy, he can take it. No, what pushes MY button is hypocrisy.
Finally, I hear you loud and clear on the stridency of some God-pushers. Can't stand 'em, myself. In fact, "hypocrites" works for them, doesn't it? But our boy Jason isn't one of them. And you sure seemed to be implying that he was, Jeb :-(
Peace, brother.
R.
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