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08/25/2010 12:16:05 PM · #1
Scary stuff. Only 39 percent of Americans believe in evolution, 20 percent think the sun orbits the earth, and 9 out of 10 can't find Afghanistan on a map of Asia. 40 percent still think healthcare reform includes death panels and that Iraq was involved in 9/11. Over a third can't even name the continent where the Amazon is located.

What's even more appalling than the polls themselves are the article comments as a few people proudly put their ignorance on public display while trying to defend misconceptions. Prime examples: "I'm altogether aware of Darwin's theories and choose not to believe them. Takes a lot more faith to believe we evolved from monkeys than it does to believe what I do. Now, evolution is a part of our world - the caterpillar into the butterfly, for example. I just wish Darwinists could explain to me why the butterfly never evolves into anything else," and, "President Obama's father was a Muslim,therefore,whether he practices the religion or not,he is a Muslim by birth." *sigh*
08/25/2010 12:38:49 PM · #2
Go watch Jesus Camp, it'll add to the horror you are currently feeling...
08/25/2010 12:52:09 PM · #3
Reminds me of a Jay Leno "person on the street" interview.

He asked a fairly well-spoken woman, "Who lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave?" She couldn't answer.

Then he asked, "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?" Without missing a beat and beaming with pride she answered, "SpongeBob Square Pants!"

as for the poll, people believe what they want to believe, even when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'll be the poll numbers for wild things are even worse in socially and media repressed places like Iran, N. Korea, and Saudi Arabia. Ask them who is responsible for the World Trade Center attack. a surprising number will tell you that Israel and the Jews were behind it.

As Sara Palin and her ilk have proved, repeat a lie enough times and people will believe it as the truth. Heck, they even start believing their own lies after a while.
08/25/2010 12:56:14 PM · #4
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism."
--Sir William Osler

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
--Martin Luther King Jr.

"Ignorance is never out of style. It was in fashion yesterday, it is the rage today and it will set the pace tomorrow."
--Frank Dane

"Unintelligent people always look for a scapegoat."
--Ernest Bevin

"Ignorance is not innocence, but sin."
-Robert Browning

"The reason there's so much ignorance is that those who have it are so eager to share it."
--Frank A. Clark
08/25/2010 01:02:47 PM · #5
I suppose every country has its share of ignorant people. I just hope they don't vote.
08/25/2010 01:03:28 PM · #6
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

I suppose every country has its share of ignorant people. I just hope they don't vote.

I'll bet that was somehow an ignorant thing to write...
08/25/2010 01:46:12 PM · #7
Many of the commenters show themselves to be rife with selective reasoning.
08/25/2010 01:49:20 PM · #8
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

I suppose every country has its share of ignorant people. I just hope they don't vote.

They vote. Need proof?
08/25/2010 02:17:08 PM · #9
Originally posted by David Ey:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

I suppose every country has its share of ignorant people. I just hope they don't vote.

They vote. Need proof?


Hmmm. The years 2000 and 2004 ring a bell. Proposition 8 also sounds familiar.
08/25/2010 02:41:31 PM · #10
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Hmmm. The years 2000 and 2004 ring a bell. Proposition 8 also sounds familiar.

The downturn of '08 was so bad he put it out of his memory.
08/25/2010 04:05:55 PM · #11
2006 too
08/25/2010 04:45:16 PM · #12
The American people aren't the only ones that are ignorant. The US government can be ignorant as well. Cue youtube video.
08/25/2010 04:58:04 PM · #13
Hey hey, don't all gang up on Strikeslip. He said he HOPES they DON'T VOTE, which could simply mean that he hopes that as many as possible won't vote.

Message edited by author 2010-08-25 16:58:58.
08/25/2010 06:49:10 PM · #14
Some of the posts raise an interesting point. How does this compare with other countries? If America is no more or less ignorant than other countries on such matters, then who cares? It's the state of the human condition. There will always be, apparently, ignorant people. Another interesting question, would be to link a basic fact ("The Earth orbits the sun") to quality of life. Are there ideas that are important for society to know as a whole, but don't really matter if the individual is unaware of the truth (thus their quality of life is unaffected)? That last question was just thinking out loud.

Message edited by author 2010-08-25 18:49:51.
08/25/2010 07:06:04 PM · #15
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Some of the posts raise an interesting point. How does this compare with other countries? If America is no more or less ignorant than other countries on such matters, then who cares? It's the state of the human condition. There will always be, apparently, ignorant people. Another interesting question, would be to link a basic fact ("The Earth orbits the sun") to quality of life. Are there ideas that are important for society to know as a whole, but don't really matter if the individual is unaware of the truth (thus their quality of life is unaffected)? That last question was just thinking out loud.


I would say, yes.

In the OP's link there were alarming numbers of people who believe that there are death panels in recently passed health care reform. Better health care options is certainly a quality of life issue. You can argue the merits of the current legislation, but a better health care system should be desirable.

Issues such as these are, IMO, often used as a diversion to enflame emotions. It's the same with immigration, the mosque near ground zero, flag burning etc. People who use these issues, even when they believe there's no real validity, are really serving another agenda. Their positions on things like tax cuts for the wealthiest, cutting Social Security and Medicare, are not popular with the majority of people, so they use these emotional issues to get people to vote for them so that they can get through their less popular agenda. Scapegoating, race baiting, religion propaganda, fear mongering have always been tools used by some to mask the true agenda. History is rife with it.

Message edited by author 2010-08-25 19:06:45.
08/25/2010 07:12:41 PM · #16
Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Some of the posts raise an interesting point. How does this compare with other countries? If America is no more or less ignorant than other countries on such matters, then who cares? It's the state of the human condition. There will always be, apparently, ignorant people. Another interesting question, would be to link a basic fact ("The Earth orbits the sun") to quality of life. Are there ideas that are important for society to know as a whole, but don't really matter if the individual is unaware of the truth (thus their quality of life is unaffected)? That last question was just thinking out loud.


I would say, yes.

In the OP's link there were alarming numbers of people who believe that there are death panels in recently passed health care reform. Better health care options is certainly a quality of life issue. You can argue the merits of the current legislation, but a better health care system should be desirable.

Issues such as these are, IMO, often used as a diversion to enflame emotions. It's the same with immigration, the mosque near ground zero, flag burning etc. People who use these issues, even when they believe there's no real validity, are really serving another agenda. Their positions on things like tax cuts for the wealthiest, cutting Social Security and Medicare, are not popular with the majority of people, so they use these emotional issues to get people to vote for them so that they can get through their less popular agenda. Scapegoating, race baiting, religion propaganda, fear mongering have always been tools used by some to mask the true agenda. History is rife with it.


Good point. I guess there may be different types of "facts". The heliocentric fact or evolution or whatnot are "facts of science" and it's quite possible a number of these have very little to do with quality of life (even something as "huge" as evolution probably affects your life very little. I would guess (though can't prove) that the quality of life index would vary very little between people who "believed in evolution" versus those who didn't if you controlled for other factors.) Many facts of physics are obvious examples where it doesn't matter at all individually if you know what a "strange quark" is (but does help if someone in your society does).

On the other hand, facts about "death panels" etc are a different group of "facts" (don't know what to call them), and, of course, can make a great deal of difference depending on whether you know the truth or not.
08/25/2010 07:15:37 PM · #17
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

How does this compare with other countries? If America is no more or less ignorant than other countries on such matters, then who cares?

Generally speaking, like this. A 2002 National Geographic/Roper poll ranked the U.S. next to last (slightly ahead of Mexico) in knowledge of geography. Issues related to U.S. politics such as healthcare reform and Obama's religion would [hopefully] favor local knowledge, but we're embarrassing compared to other modern countries when it comes to history, science, geography and civics.
08/25/2010 07:24:53 PM · #18
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Some of the posts raise an interesting point. How does this compare with other countries? If America is no more or less ignorant than other countries on such matters, then who cares? It's the state of the human condition. There will always be, apparently, ignorant people. Another interesting question, would be to link a basic fact ("The Earth orbits the sun") to quality of life. Are there ideas that are important for society to know as a whole, but don't really matter if the individual is unaware of the truth (thus their quality of life is unaffected)? That last question was just thinking out loud.


I would say, yes.

In the OP's link there were alarming numbers of people who believe that there are death panels in recently passed health care reform. Better health care options is certainly a quality of life issue. You can argue the merits of the current legislation, but a better health care system should be desirable.

Issues such as these are, IMO, often used as a diversion to enflame emotions. It's the same with immigration, the mosque near ground zero, flag burning etc. People who use these issues, even when they believe there's no real validity, are really serving another agenda. Their positions on things like tax cuts for the wealthiest, cutting Social Security and Medicare, are not popular with the majority of people, so they use these emotional issues to get people to vote for them so that they can get through their less popular agenda. Scapegoating, race baiting, religion propaganda, fear mongering have always been tools used by some to mask the true agenda. History is rife with it.


Good point. I guess there may be different types of "facts". The heliocentric fact or evolution or whatnot are "facts of science" and it's quite possible a number of these have very little to do with quality of life (even something as "huge" as evolution probably affects your life very little. I would guess (though can't prove) that the quality of life index would vary very little between people who "believed in evolution" versus those who didn't if you controlled for other factors.) Many facts of physics are obvious examples where it doesn't matter at all individually if you know what a "strange quark" is (but does help if someone in your society does).

On the other hand, facts about "death panels" etc are a different group of "facts" (don't know what to call them), and, of course, can make a great deal of difference depending on whether you know the truth or not.


On issues like evolution vs creationism, I agree. In and of themselves there is no quality of life issue. It's right up there with the designated hitter rule in baseball.

However, when it is used as a political tool, then it gets dangerous. There are voters out there that will vote for a candidate on this issue alone. This debate can affect the quality of life in places like boards of education, text book panels, religious freedoms, and more. So, in that regard, I believe it is a quality of life issue, at least a quality of education issue.

Message edited by author 2010-08-25 19:38:19.
08/25/2010 07:31:39 PM · #19
The geography question may have an obvious answer which is we are isolated. If you live in heartland America, you will only find about a dozen countries within a 2500 mile radius of where you live.

I'm not trying to defend ignorance. Obviously education is better than non-education. But what is the point of pointing a finger and laughing?

I agree with you David. I just happened to have the interesting thought that perhaps 90% of the happiness to be had with "facts" could be had in 25% of the knowledge. Some knowledge gets you more bang for your buck and there is a surprising amount that doesn't matter at all to a person's quality of life.

Message edited by author 2010-08-25 19:32:59.
08/25/2010 07:42:13 PM · #20
Originally posted by scarbrd:

On issues like evolution vs creationism, I agree. In and of themselves there is no quality of life issue. It's right up there with the designated hitter rule in baseball.

Creationism affects quality of life, because it is an agenda-based litany of beliefs, the end goal of which is control of the masses, and the unification of society into exactly one religion and one outlook on human destiny, which ends at a very specific place, with a very specific result. Ask any dyed-in-the-wool creationist. They'll tell you.

Creationism has the potential to affect the quality of life in the world in the same way that the Taliban affects the quality of life in Afghanistan. Comparing its ideological impact to the banality of baseball is grossly misjudging it. When was the last time a group of baseball aficionados went to court to seek injunctions on how kids should be taught the rules of the game?
08/25/2010 07:43:31 PM · #21
Are you guys saying it doesn't matter which side of a debate/argument one takes as long as it doesn't effect quality of life eg: evolution?

I know I would not have much trust in someone (eg: government leaders, politicians, etc) if they took an opposing view to something I felt strongly about.

Jason, as for being isolated, I think we Australians (for one) might be more so and yet I would bet we finish higher in any of the previously mentioned polls. No I think the ignorance you talk about is from self-isolation, unwillingness to explore either physically or mentally anything outside your immediate environment, especially if it appears it doesn't effect you.

08/25/2010 07:44:05 PM · #22
Hehe. Should I totally derail the conversation for something I find interesting? Shannon linked a study listing the % of people who believed in evolution for various countries and found the US at almost the bottom. But in the study he also notes:

“The total effect of pro-life attitudes on the acceptance of evolution was much greater in the United States than in the nine European countries surveyed,” he said. In other words, Miller and colleagues found that persons with strong pro-life beliefs were significantly more likely to reject evolution than those with pro-choice views.

I would submit that that association may be backward and that people who accept evolution are less likely to be "pro-life". Does the acceptance that we are no different than any other species debase the idea that humans have certain "indelible rights"? Forget about abortion. That issue is too hot and will only lead to diatribes. But we could discuss the more complex issue of Stem Cell research which is a timely one.
08/25/2010 07:44:17 PM · #23
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The geography question may have an obvious answer which is we are isolated. If you live in heartland America, you will only find about a dozen countries within a 2500 mile radius of where you live.

I'm not trying to defend ignorance. Obviously education is better than non-education. But what is the point of pointing a finger and laughing?

I agree with you David. I just happened to have the interesting thought that perhaps 90% of the happiness to be had with "facts" could be had in 25% of the knowledge. Some knowledge gets you more bang for your buck and there is a surprising amount that doesn't matter at all to a person's quality of life.


True, because finger pointing and laughing at uneducated people will get you labeled an "intellectual elitist" out of touch with real Americans.

An educated voter is dangerous to the far right in the country. Is it any wonder that Rush, Sean, Glenn are all college drop outs?
08/25/2010 07:46:46 PM · #24
Originally posted by MichaelC:

Jason, as for being isolated, I think we Australians (for one) might be more so and yet I would bet we finish higher in any of the previously mentioned polls. No I think the ignorance you talk about is from self-isolation, unwillingness to explore either physically or mentally anything outside your immediate environment, especially if it appears it doesn't effect you.


You might be right Michael, but in a debate I wouldn't take this as very much evidence (you "betting"). You gotta dig up the results for me. :)
08/25/2010 07:47:23 PM · #25
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

On issues like evolution vs creationism, I agree. In and of themselves there is no quality of life issue. It's right up there with the designated hitter rule in baseball.

Creationism affects quality of life, because it is an agenda-based litany of beliefs, the end goal of which is control of the masses, and the unification of society into exactly one religion and one outlook on human destiny, which ends at a very specific place, with a very specific result. Ask any dyed-in-the-wool creationist. They'll tell you.

Creationism has the potential to affect the quality of life in the world in the same way that the Taliban affects the quality of life in Afghanistan. Comparing its ideological impact to the banality of baseball is grossly misjudging it. When was the last time a group of baseball aficionados went to court to seek injunctions on how kids should be taught the rules of the game?


I think that was exactly my point. Sorry you missed it. Trust me, I am not misjudging anything on this subject. I live in Texas where the state school board just had their way with the text books on this and a number of other issues. And to make it more scary, the text books chosen by Texas are used in almost half the country.
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