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08/19/2010 10:51:34 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Wow...must be a record for the most DQ's in a challenge..... |
Just goes to show that a lot of people don't read the rules. Minimal Editing rules are very simple and easy to understand.
You may:
-use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry, with the exception of combining multiple captures in-camera.
-rotate your entry by 90, 180 or 270 degrees.
-resize your entry once.
-sharpen your entry using your editing software’s “sharpen” or equivalent option. The use of customizable sharpening tools, such as Unsharp Mask, is not allowed.
-fully desaturate your image using your editing software’s “desaturate,” “convert to grayscale” or equivalent function. Customizable tools are not allowed.
Nothing else is allowed. |
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08/19/2010 10:54:30 AM · #27 |
| I'd be happy if they allowed me to hit "soften" once. Then when I have an out of focus image it will look like it was deliberate. ;) |
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08/19/2010 11:23:24 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Wow...must be a record for the most DQ's in a challenge..... |
Just goes to show that a lot of people don't read the rules. Minimal Editing rules are very simple and easy to understan[i]d.
Nothing else is allowed. |
No they are not - I've not yet had anybody clarify whether using a customisable tool in default mode is allowed.If I use a customisable tool with the understanding that I don't move the slider then it isn't customisable (in that instance). Is that a fair interpretation? I really don't know.... I really did read the rules, I promise. |
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08/19/2010 11:27:20 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I've not yet had anybody clarify whether using a customisable tool in default mode is allowed. |
No customizable tools are allowed, so the mode doesn't really matter. |
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08/19/2010 11:29:54 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Wow...must be a record for the most DQ's in a challenge..... |
Just goes to show that a lot of people don't read the rules. Minimal Editing rules are very simple and easy to understan[i]d.
Nothing else is allowed. |
No they are not - I've not yet had anybody clarify whether using a customisable tool in default mode is allowed.If I use a customisable tool with the understanding that I don't move the slider then it isn't customisable (in that instance). Is that a fair interpretation? I really don't know.... I really did read the rules, I promise. |
that's a slippery slope. A lot of times the tool defaults to the last used settings. Besides, what customizable tool COULD you use anyways? If you have USM you have plain Jane Sharpen option usually. And if your tool doesn't have that? There's always Picasa, GIMP or a number of other free image editing programs.
And really sharpening when you are shooting JPG isn't as much of necessity. The camera takes care of sharpening when the image is captured and in most SLRs its configurable. Anything you do in software after that is extra. |
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08/19/2010 11:30:28 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
Originally posted by KarenNfld:
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Wow...must be a record for the most DQ's in a challenge..... |
Just goes to show that a lot of people don't read the rules. Minimal Editing rules are very simple and easy to understan[i]d.
Nothing else is allowed. |
No they are not - I've not yet had anybody clarify whether using a customisable tool in default mode is allowed.If I use a customisable tool with the understanding that I don't move the slider then it isn't customisable (in that instance). Is that a fair interpretation? I really don't know.... I really did read the rules, I promise. |
It's not open for debate:
"The use of customizable sharpening tools, such as Unsharp Mask, is not allowed."
"Customizable tools are not allowed."
What part of that is not clear? It doesn't say "You may use customizable tools if the settings are left at the defaults", it says you may not use customizable tools. Period.
Understandably enough, IMO, because trying to determine whether somebody had adhered to the defaults would be a nightmare, and anyway some tools default to neutral presets but others default to "most recent setting" so who would be able to figure all that out?
R.
ETA: day late and dollar short, that's me; props to scalvert and citadel.
Message edited by author 2010-08-19 11:33:24.
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08/19/2010 11:48:09 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I've not yet had anybody clarify whether using a customisable tool in default mode is allowed. |
No customizable tools are allowed, so the mode doesn't really matter. |
So as a user of Aperture, I open a JPEG. I click on the adjustment tab and select sharpen. I do nothing else. I export the image at 800px and upload the image to DPC. That would seem safe wouldn't it?
However, if I care to look, and I ensure the little arrow next the sharpen parameters widget is opened, I can see that 'Intensity' is set to 0.5 and 'Radius' is set to 1.0. It is customisable and thus not safe.
If that's the case I can't use Aperture. I import the jpeg directly onto my desktop. I open it with Preview - the sharpen tool is a slider, I can (and must) customise the amount of sharpening (the precise parameters of which are hidden from me), so I can't do that either.
So as an Apple user, assuming Aperture in my only image editing tool - I can't sharpen an entry and comply with DPC minimal editing? Is that right?
I hope this doesn't seem like me being pedantic - I'm one of those people who thinks these post-DQ autopsies are really useful in promoting clarity and learning and I really value the debates and clarifications that take place as we bounce this stuff around.
Many thanks
Paul
Message edited by author 2010-08-19 11:53:52. |
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08/19/2010 12:19:23 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
So as an Apple user, assuming Aperture in my only image editing tool - I can't sharpen an entry and comply with DPC minimal editing? Is that right? |
Correct. Aperture actually does some pre-sharpening when you open the file, but otherwise it's off-limits. The whole point of Minimal is "straight from the camera" entries. You can crank up the sharpening preset in your camera before you take the shot, but otherwise you'd have to use Photoshop or some free tool like Picasa or GIMP to get a basic sharpen (assuming they have one). |
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08/19/2010 12:31:09 PM · #34 |
That's great and very clear. Of course that is also in perfect agreement with the rules as written too, but I am known to be a little dense (and stubborn) at times!
Thanks again
Paul |
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08/19/2010 01:35:31 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
PSE 8 does have "Auto Sharpen" in the Enhance menu. So, I guess I did have a sharpen option which did not involve any adjustment. So, I was wrong and violated the rules. I wasn't trying to gain an edge, as the image did not need sharpening in the first place. It was plain stupidity on my part. I simply did not understand the minimal editing rules, although I thought I did. |
Regardless, it was a superb image. Would have ended up where it did without any sharpening at all I figure.. :) |
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08/19/2010 01:59:59 PM · #36 |
I vote change "Minimal Editing" to "No Editing" and make it in your face BOLD next to the Challenge Description, this would avoid all confusion, especially for those of us who have never seen this challenge type.
Sorry for your DQ Richard...I couldn't enter a shot because I didn't shoot it in JPG and not seeing this challenge type before failed to understand that I couldn't shoot in RAW and later save to jpg in camera. |
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08/19/2010 02:08:13 PM · #37 |
| Wow, with all this talk about sharpening, I am obviously missing out on a whole lot of details that go into post processing... Ive never looked at my image with that much detail to see if it needs a specific amount of sharpening. I guess my eyes rarely notice the difference. Thats why I suck :/ |
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08/19/2010 02:20:37 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Magnum_za:
I vote change "Minimal Editing" to "No Editing" and make it in your face BOLD next to the Challenge Description, this would avoid all confusion, especially for those of us who have never seen this challenge type. |
Except "no editing" doesn't work because portrait images need to be rotated in post, and rotation is editing.
In a related vein, it's not a good idea to force people to do all the sharpening in-camera, because the correct amount of sharpening for conversion to 800 pixels is substantially more than you'd want for printing, so we'd be forcing people to change their JPG settings destructively, to produce images that would ONLY work for a minimal editing challenge.
I presume this is the thinking behind making allowance for simple sharpening in minimal editing, and it makes sense to me.
R.
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08/19/2010 02:25:02 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
Wow, with all this talk about sharpening, I am obviously missing out on a whole lot of details that go into post processing... Ive never looked at my image with that much detail to see if it needs a specific amount of sharpening. I guess my eyes rarely notice the difference. Thats why I suck :/ |
Have you ever noticed how a lot of the very best images at DPC seem to be super-crisp and super-smooth at the same time? That's what in-depth sharpening expertise can bring to the party.
There are entire BOOKS written on how to most effectively sharpen digital images.
R.
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08/19/2010 02:41:18 PM · #40 |
I vote we do away with "minimal editing" completely, many think the ruleset will level the playing field for those who don't know photoshop. The over-abundance of previous ribbons(and HM's) among the majority of ribbon winners and top-ten finshers from the two recent minimal editing challenges clearly shows that they are winning regardless of whether they use photoshop or not.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Magnum_za:
I vote change "Minimal Editing" to "No Editing" and make it in your face BOLD next to the Challenge Description, this would avoid all confusion, especially for those of us who have never seen this challenge type. |
Except "no editing" doesn't work because portrait images need to be rotated in post, and rotation is editing.
In a related vein, it's not a good idea to force people to do all the sharpening in-camera, because the correct amount of sharpening for conversion to 800 pixels is substantially more than you'd want for printing, so we'd be forcing people to change their JPG settings destructively, to produce images that would ONLY work for a minimal editing challenge.
I presume this is the thinking behind making allowance for simple sharpening in minimal editing, and it makes sense to me.
R. |
Message edited by author 2010-08-19 14:43:35. |
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08/19/2010 02:54:32 PM · #41 |
What a long thread about NOTHING.
The rules were very clear.
NO RAW. -- Easy.
No customizable Sharpening tools. Doesn't say use a customizable tool and promise not to touch anything. Besides, most tools save the sliders values... so just because you didn't touch them for this photo, doesn't mean you're not using a customized setting.
Yes, I can imagine that losing a ribbon would be painful. But we all have the same rules to follow and the majority didn't get it wrong it seems. Deal with it and move on. Read the rules next time. |
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08/19/2010 03:06:06 PM · #42 |
I personally love the challenge of trying to do everything in camera. I was busy with other projects so I didn't have a chance to shoot either of the two challenges but I do want to see more minimal editing challenges.
There is a lot of value in doing it right in camera. If you have say 50 images you need to edit and it takes you approximately 5 minutes to edit each one that's 250 minutes or over 4 hours. If you spend 15 minutes extra while shooting to get it right in camera and get your editing down to 2 minutes per image that's a savings of 135 minutes or 2 1/4 hours. Now obviously these numbers are all arbitrary but you get the idea. If I get my lighting right so I don't need to do dodging and burning on every single image for example, that's going to save a lot of time and creative energy.
So when I see these challenges I use them to help me to shoot better so I can spend more time taking pictures and less time in front of a computer. |
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08/19/2010 03:08:06 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
Wow, with all this talk about sharpening, I am obviously missing out on a whole lot of details that go into post processing... Ive never looked at my image with that much detail to see if it needs a specific amount of sharpening. I guess my eyes rarely notice the difference. Thats why I suck :/ |
Have you ever noticed how a lot of the very best images at DPC seem to be super-crisp and super-smooth at the same time? That's what in-depth sharpening expertise can bring to the party.
There are entire BOOKS written on how to most effectively sharpen digital images.
R. |
Ah, I must learn this method then. Any good resources that you can help me out with? |
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08/19/2010 03:11:23 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
Ah, I must learn this method then. Any good resources that you can help me out with? |
See this thread ... |
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08/19/2010 03:24:46 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
Ah, I must learn this method then. Any good resources that you can help me out with? |
See this thread ... |
There ya go!
One thing I've discovered; when using Adamus, it's best to do the first resize to exactly 200% of the desired final size, usually 1600/800 in DPC. Also, I flatten my image before resizing, and after resizing to 1600 I dupe the image, sharpen the dupe, dupe that, sharpen again, dupe a third time, sharpen a third time, then resize, and turn layers on/off and or fade the topmost "on" layer to fine-tune the degree of sharpening I want at the final image size.
The above is for advanced editing; technically, you can't do that in basic editing; you'd have to run 3 passes of sharpening on the base image, resize, and if that looked too sharp back up and try it with two passes, homing in on the desired result.
R.
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08/19/2010 03:31:02 PM · #46 |
| Ah thanks, you guys are the best. |
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08/19/2010 03:59:38 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
....
Yes, I can imagine that losing a ribbon would be painful. But we all have the same rules to follow and the majority didn't get it wrong it seems. Deal with it and move on. Read the rules next time. |
I didn't complain about losing a ribbon and I'm not angry about anything. I did want to know the reason for the DQ. It is clear in my mind now. And, I think this thread may be helpful to those who participate in future "minimal editing" challenges. I really like the "straight from the camera" concept. It reminded me of the way I used to shoot with film. Digital photography has made me sloppy and careless in some areas. I should always compose the scene through the viewfinder with proper exposure, leveled, etc.... rather than assume I can fix it later in pp. So, even though I suffered a DQ, I learned a lot about my shooting. The minimal editing constraints made me think and plan. That is a valuable wakeup call.
Sometimes in life, one's purpose is to serve as a bad example others can learn from. That would be me this time! I certainly did not interpret the rules correctly, but I did carefully read all the rules. It was my misunderstanding and I harbor no grudge or anger. I'll just be more careful in the future. That was my first SC DQ in 354 challenge entries. So, it's okay. I'm having a good day otherwise. |
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08/19/2010 04:05:56 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
....
Yes, I can imagine that losing a ribbon would be painful. But we all have the same rules to follow and the majority didn't get it wrong it seems. Deal with it and move on. Read the rules next time. |
I didn't complain about losing a ribbon and I'm not angry about anything. I did want to know the reason for the DQ. It is clear in my mind now. And, I think this thread may be helpful to those who participate in future "minimal editing" challenges. I really like the "straight from the camera" concept. It reminded me of the way I used to shoot with film. Digital photography has made me sloppy and careless in some areas. I should always compose the scene through the viewfinder with proper exposure, leveled, etc.... rather than assume I can fix it later in pp. So, even though I suffered a DQ, I learned a lot about my shooting. The minimal editing constraints made me think and plan. That is a valuable wakeup call.
Sometimes in life, one's purpose is to serve as a bad example others can learn from. That would be me this time! I certainly did not interpret the rules correctly, but I did carefully read all the rules. It was my misunderstanding and I harbor no grudge or anger. I'll just be more careful in the future. That was my first SC DQ in 354 challenge entries. So, it's okay. I'm having a good day otherwise. |
We learn a little everyday:) I am pleased you have accepted the DQ, although it is disappointing after putting effort into a shot, and one you clearly like a lot. Enjoy the rest of your day:) |
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08/19/2010 04:09:48 PM · #49 |
I haven't read the whole thread, but I get the jist. These threads are very useful. There are so many things to get DQd for -- the people who have been here for awhile know them. Others don't. My DQ came from knowledge that was clearly known to people, but not spelled out anywhere. I searched for over an hour after the DQ message came in (and ranted for longer than that :)
I wish someone would put together a "be careful, or this will get you DQd" tutorial. I tried starting a thread asking people about their DQs, but it didn't really go anywhere. Perhaps someone else could have better luck with it.
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08/19/2010 04:11:55 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
....
Yes, I can imagine that losing a ribbon would be painful. But we all have the same rules to follow and the majority didn't get it wrong it seems. Deal with it and move on. Read the rules next time. |
I didn't complain about losing a ribbon and I'm not angry about anything. I did want to know the reason for the DQ. It is clear in my mind now. And, I think this thread may be helpful to those who participate in future "minimal editing" challenges. I really like the "straight from the camera" concept. It reminded me of the way I used to shoot with film. Digital photography has made me sloppy and careless in some areas. I should always compose the scene through the viewfinder with proper exposure, leveled, etc.... rather than assume I can fix it later in pp. So, even though I suffered a DQ, I learned a lot about my shooting. The minimal editing constraints made me think and plan. That is a valuable wakeup call.
Sometimes in life, one's purpose is to serve as a bad example others can learn from. That would be me this time! I certainly did not interpret the rules correctly, but I did carefully read all the rules. It was my misunderstanding and I harbor no grudge or anger. I'll just be more careful in the future. That was my first SC DQ in 354 challenge entries. So, it's okay. I'm having a good day otherwise. |
Totally understandable. In the end, I actually find I like you much more after this whole exchange.. You've got a much better personality that I had previously suspected, and you're an amazing photographer who would have ended up in the same position using the regular sharpen tool, I really do suspect that the infraction truly had no effect on the challenge results, other than the unfortunate DQ that is....
Message edited by author 2010-08-19 16:13:02. |
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