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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Announcements >> 'Over-' Challenge Results Recalculated
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08/19/2010 09:34:37 AM · #1
The results of the 'Over-' challenge have been recalculated, due to the disqualification of the former 2nd and 3rd place winners for shooting in RAW and adjusting contrast, and using custom sharpening respectively. Congrats to our new ribbon winners!
08/19/2010 09:50:45 AM · #2
I request a review of this decision, please. I followed the rules exactly. I did NOT use Unsharp Mask. I did use my editing software's "sharpen" option. Please explain what I did to cause a DQ of my entry.

From the minimal editing rules....
You may:

...sharpen your entry using your editing software’s “sharpen” or equivalent option. The use of customizable sharpening tools, such as Unsharp Mask, is not allowed.


Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_902218.jpg
08/19/2010 09:54:53 AM · #3
Originally posted by Minimal Editing Rules:

"The use of customizable sharpening tools ... is not allowed."


Originally posted by hahn23 editing steps:

Sharpened in Apple's Aperture. Intensity +0.68; radius +3.41.

Your sharpening tool meets the definition of customizable, hence your DQ.
08/19/2010 09:56:45 AM · #4
I'm guessing this...

One resizing. Sharpened in Apple's Aperture with "Sharpen" brick. Intensity +0.68; radius +3.41.

Putting the intensity and radius makes it "customized". Sorry about the DQ.
08/19/2010 10:01:47 AM · #5
Just checked all of my editing tools. Apple's Aperure, Photoshop Elements 8 and Pixelmator. All of these have a sharpen tool. All of them have sliders. None of them can be applied without have some degree of selection of intensity and radius. So, if the purpose is to not allow any sharpening, then why have a clause in the minimal editing ruleset allowing the use of a sharpening tool.

Let me ask the question, "Who has an editing tool without slider adjustments?"
08/19/2010 10:07:05 AM · #6
PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.
08/19/2010 10:07:11 AM · #7
I don't.
08/19/2010 10:07:28 AM · #8
Wow...must be a record for the most DQ's in a challenge.....
08/19/2010 10:12:20 AM · #9
Originally posted by karmat:

PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.

Your PaintshopPro 7 "customized" sharpening is the choice between sharpen and sharpen more. That is not much different from a slider choice. Was my mistake mentioning how I set my sharpen tool? I thought we were supposed to list all editing steps.
08/19/2010 10:13:40 AM · #10
Originally posted by hahn23:

Let me ask the question, "Who has an editing tool without slider adjustments?"


Photoshop CS3 has the following, under the "sharpen" category in the "filters" menu:

Sharpen
Sharpen Edges
Sharpen More
Unsharp Mask
Smart Sharpen

The first 3 have no sliders, you just click 'em and they happen.

The minimal rules say "You may sharpen your entry using your editing software’s “sharpen” or equivalent option. The use of customizable sharpening tools, such as Unsharp Mask, is not allowed."

Based on that, I decided not to use "edges" or "more", since my editing software has a "sharpen" option. I like the image better with "sharpen edges" but I played it safe, even though that is not a customizable function.

It seems simple enough to me; if all your sharpening tools are customizable, don't sharpen. I don't know why you are thinking the other way, that because YOU don't have a non-customizable sharpening tool, nobody should be allowed to sharpen. Besides, I could have sworn Elements has the simple "sharpen" command in its menu?

R.
08/19/2010 10:15:40 AM · #11
Originally posted by karmat:

PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.

It's not a visual slider, but sharpen more/sharpen less definitely imitates a slider.

I feel for you, hahn23. I thought that rule was appropriately vague, and that what karmat did was legal due to the lack of a visual slider is a shame (not saying you should get DQ'd too, but that it does slide the sharpness from none to some, and then some more, etc).
08/19/2010 10:18:05 AM · #12
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:

Originally posted by karmat:

PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.

It's not a visual slider, but sharpen more/sharpen less definitely imitates a slider.

I feel for you, hahn23. I thought that rule was appropriately vague, and that what karmat did was legal due to the lack of a visual slider is a shame (not saying you should get DQ'd too, but that it does slide the sharpness from none to some, and then some more, etc).


I did not have an entry. Hahn asked if there was any software that provided a "one click sharpen" (or sharpen that was not customizable) and I was telling him of one.
08/19/2010 10:19:42 AM · #13
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by NiallOTuama:

Originally posted by karmat:

PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.

It's not a visual slider, but sharpen more/sharpen less definitely imitates a slider.

I feel for you, hahn23. I thought that rule was appropriately vague, and that what karmat did was legal due to the lack of a visual slider is a shame (not saying you should get DQ'd too, but that it does slide the sharpness from none to some, and then some more, etc).


I did not have an entry. Hahn asked if there was any software that provided a "one click sharpen" (or sharpen that was not customizable) and I was telling him of one.

Ah. My apologies for my assumption.
Would that be allowed though? Sharpen more?
08/19/2010 10:22:16 AM · #14
PSE 8 does have "Auto Sharpen" in the Enhance menu. So, I guess I did have a sharpen option which did not involve any adjustment. So, I was wrong and violated the rules. I wasn't trying to gain an edge, as the image did not need sharpening in the first place. It was plain stupidity on my part. I simply did not understand the minimal editing rules, although I thought I did.
08/19/2010 10:23:24 AM · #15
Look, the REASON for the rule seems pretty clear: images NEED some sharpening for web display. Those of us who understand complex sharpening techniques involving multiple resizes and multiple sharpenings have a significant advantage in presenting our images, usually, over those who have no clue about this stuff.

Minimal Editing is designed to level the playing field in a lot of areas, not just sharpening, by eliminating all this post-processing inside knowledge. But nevertheless, SOME sharpening is required for most images, so the ruleset makes allowance for the least knowledge-dependent form of sharpening.

And don't forget, there's nothing in the minimal rules to keep you from sharpening more than once, if you need a stronger dose, so the business of calling "sharpen" and "sharpen more" the equivalent of a slider doesn't really hold water. The thing is, even inexperienced people can see and understand the differences as they one-click sharpen with these blunt-edge tools, but they CAN'T easily assimilate the subtleties of adjusting radius, intensity, and such in more complex sharpening techniques.

R.

ETA: Just saw Richard's latest post, so all of above is redundant as far as he's concerned. Sorry for the DQ, Richard.

Message edited by author 2010-08-19 10:24:33.
08/19/2010 10:25:10 AM · #16
I can understand why only the simplest of sharpening is allowed. With certain sharpening tools that allow tweaking, e.g. Unsharp Mask, at certain settings it does more than just sharpen but also tweaks the contrast. There are various resize methods which can also alter the final output , making it look sharper or smoother. Is it allowed to sharpen and then resize(once of course)? Just wondering if the order matters. Tnx.
08/19/2010 10:25:44 AM · #17
Originally posted by hahn23:

Just checked all of my editing tools. Apple's Aperure, Photoshop Elements 8 and Pixelmator. All of these have a sharpen tool. All of them have sliders. None of them can be applied without have some degree of selection of intensity and radius. So, if the purpose is to not allow any sharpening, then why have a clause in the minimal editing ruleset allowing the use of a sharpening tool.

Let me ask the question, "Who has an editing tool without slider adjustments?"


I was worried about this because I use Aperture and was aware it was slider based - I actually do all my final sharpening in Preview (still slider based). When I checked though, enabling the sharpen adjustment in Aperture and not touching the slider does effect some default sharpening - this would've been the route to go I suspect.

I posted a question on this very issue in a forum prior to a challenge - in the end, I didn't enter, (my framing at 98% or whatever you get meant I had missed something on the edge of the frame that needed cropping) but I think minimal editing is still quite new territory for many of us.

I'm still not clear as to whether it is OK to use a customisable tool with default settings, like enabling 'sharpen' in Aperture and making no adjustment to the slider that appears on the left had bar.
08/19/2010 10:27:01 AM · #18
Originally posted by Techo:

Is it allowed to sharpen and then resize(once of course)? Just wondering if the order matters. Tnx.


The order is not specified in the rules, so either is legal. And remember, the rules let you hit that "sharpen" button more than once.

R.


08/19/2010 10:31:20 AM · #19
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Techo:

Is it allowed to sharpen and then resize(once of course)? Just wondering if the order matters. Tnx.


The order is not specified in the rules, so either is legal. And remember, the rules let you hit that "sharpen" button more than once.

R.


Cool. Thanks R :)
I've been out of the loop a bit. Wanted to be sure. I was quite tempted to resize twice during the first minimal challenge myself. Lucky for me that wasn't an optimal choice for the image I had. Don't remember if that rule was clearly implied back then either but still.

Message edited by author 2010-08-19 10:31:47.
08/19/2010 10:32:48 AM · #20
Originally posted by karmat:

PaintshopPro 7 does. I choose "sharpen" on a drop down menu, then I can choose "sharpen," "sharpen more" or "unsharp mask." I have no sliders or any input whatsoever with this option if I choose one of the first two.


Ditto.
08/19/2010 10:38:42 AM · #21
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Techo:

Is it allowed to sharpen and then resize(once of course)? Just wondering if the order matters. Tnx.


The order is not specified in the rules, so either is legal. And remember, the rules let you hit that "sharpen" button more than once.

R.


Umm, didn't Scalvert get dq'd for hitting sharpen more than once?
08/19/2010 10:40:20 AM · #22
Originally posted by skewsme:

Umm, didn't Scalvert get dq'd for hitting sharpen more than once?


No, he RESIZED more than once. That's the no-no.

R.
08/19/2010 10:43:23 AM · #23
well it's ridiculous sharpening multiple times would be allowed for a minimal editing challenge
08/19/2010 10:48:39 AM · #24
Originally posted by skewsme:

well it's ridiculous sharpening multiple times would be allowed for a minimal editing challenge


I tend to agree with you, but it is what it is. I think the rules should specify you can only sharpen once as well, myself.

R.
08/19/2010 10:48:43 AM · #25
I think he did something equivalent to Adamus sharpening if I recall correctly (i.e. resize to double the final output size, sharpen once or twice, resize to final output).

eta: the irony was that Shannon actually WROTE the resize once rule. :)

the image in question :
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_458236.jpg

Message edited by author 2010-08-19 10:50:20.
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