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07/28/2010 01:12:44 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Again, I'll repeat - if some of you are soooo into basic editing, nothing is stopping you from entering a basic edited photo (or not edited) in ANY challenge. But the reverse is not true.
eta: if all challenges were advanced, you could even put the ever-annoying "crop only!" in your title to impress the voters. |
But, you fail (or seem to fail, are you baiting me? :) )... to account for the fact that the quality in advanced (because you CAN remove powerlines etc...), is higher in general, therefore to be competitive you MUST use advanced techniques, or at least you really should..
That's the beauty of basic, everyone can really be competitive, while still bringing out the best from their photographs without extensive work (generally...)..
I know, you also want a godzilla-must-be-in-every-shot rule too, but I just don't really think there's any reason at all to drop basic editing or to make it less prevalent...
I however DO think there is a great deal of demand for alternative rule sets and unusual (SOTC / Expert) editing rules... |
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07/28/2010 01:14:57 AM · #52 |
I honestly like the variety of rule sets. We've had a couple of expert editing challenges this year and I haven't had a chance to submit but I like the fact that its a treat and not an everyday occurrence. I do notice that basic challenges are a little more rare now but I have to say that I enjoy them too. Every ruleset has its place on this site I think. Obviously there are people with stronger preferences but I think that our most successful members on this site don't see any of the rulesets as a creative limitation at all.
Message edited by author 2010-07-28 01:15:37. |
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07/28/2010 01:15:13 AM · #53 |
i vote for more basic editing. get the photograph sorted out in-camera, that's what the art is about.
or else we could call it DA Challenge rather? |
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07/28/2010 03:21:09 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
But, you fail (or seem to fail, are you baiting me? :) )... to account for the fact that the quality in advanced (because you CAN remove powerlines etc...), is higher in general yada yada yada |
I think that is the OP's point. It's my point anyway. I wouldn't want expert editing or digital art challenges all the time. I like the challenges basic rules provide with the exception of things like removing power lines and just polishing the image a little - stuff mentioned by the OP. Jeb mentioned earlier something along the lines of good photography is framing the shot properly in the first place. I disagree. Sometimes that has more to do with contortion than photography to avoid distracting elements.
I'm not that adamant about getting rid of basic, but I do see a strong argument for it and like I said nothing is stopping anyone from limiting their editing in Advanced.
How about the open challenges be one of each - Basic and Advanced? Then people can just whine about wanting to enter one of them but "it's no fair because it's advanced and they don't have SuperPhotoshopPlatinum" and others will bitch because they want to enter the other one, but "it's no fair because the challenge topic is "No Power Lines" but it is under the Basic rules!"
Now look what you've done - you got me yammering away senselessly. :P Ahhhh, I love this place.
eta: I just noticed the two new open challenges are both Advanced. Forgive me for saying "Ha. Ha. Ha ha ha." ;-)
Message edited by author 2010-07-28 03:31:28. |
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07/28/2010 07:01:51 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Jac:
I totally disagree with the original post. Totally!!!
Learning photography DOES NOT include learning Photoshop or any other graphics app. |
I disagree with your disagreement. It has it's place and those who make money with it in the real world will use the tools that produce what sells.
As much as I like the extra flexibility and choices that I have with advanced editing, basic editing makes me concentrate on improving my skills at the camera end of the equation. I like the current mix of both. |
Let me rephrase because nobody got it.
You do not need Photoshop to produce a great image.
I'm all for Basic Editing and would like to see more challenges that restrict editing.
Clear enough?
Sheesh! |
*applauding* All the PS in the world will not save a crappy photo, I learned that long ago.
Now I have nothing against Advanced, but let's face it, when you have the freedom to pp together the best of 10 images to create THE perfect image, along with the freedom to spot-edit....well....that's a helluva lot of room to improve a shot.
Basic editing, imho, means you have to take a better image, because it is just one capture, and no spot editing is allowed. Hell, pretty much all my Advanced entries are done to Basic rules, with maybe some spot editing, and often not even that.
Right now in Mythical, which of course is Expert editing, I am getting my ass handed to me on a platter. But I expected that, because my PS skills are very rudimentary.
And let's face it, PS takes awhile to learn. I have enough on my own plate, thankyaverymuch, and there are several great PS wizards here whom I do ask for help. But overall, I much prefer taking better photos, running them through PS only to enhance what was already captured, and nothing more.
Long live Basic!
*ducking flames* |
Exactickley. :)
I too use Basic Rules in Advanced Editing very often. I get a feeling of accomplishment when I do because I didn't need PS to complete my image. |
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07/28/2010 08:07:01 AM · #56 |
i was playing around with topaz trial last night, and i'm still not sure how its allowed in basic editing.
doesn't it in a way apply an effect filter to the picture? and effect filters are not allowed. |
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07/28/2010 08:30:43 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by ralton:
i vote for more basic editing. get the photograph sorted out in-camera, that's what the art is about.
or else we could call it DA Challenge rather? |
So many people are mentioning getting the composition right in camera... yet cropping in PS is allowed. Making a great photograph requires a lot of factors and we don't limit other things. For instance, I can whine that I can't afford the equipment that many on here have. Does that mean that I'm at a disadvantage... well, yes of course it does. However, they don't have challenges that limit the quality of equipment right?
To me it's silly to limit editing the same way. I want to make the best photo I possibly can. Yes, sometimes I can do that in basic editing... sometimes I can do it with no editing at all. However, if I know I can improve on the photo for whatever reason, I like having the option. To me, it seems really silly to allow us to edit certain things (like Topaz adjustments) and not others (slight dodging & burning).
Not that anything is going to change, but I would vote for the following weekly challenges:
- Right from the camera, no editing
- Advanced (single photo, no text, etc)
- Expert (multi photo, text, etc) |
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07/28/2010 08:59:27 AM · #58 |
| FWIW I'd like to see more SFTC...Basic staying just as it is...more Expert, but maybe not on a weekly basis...and Advanced rolled back to one capture. |
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07/28/2010 09:00:23 AM · #59 |
I think the original intent of this thread was to discuss whether or not basic editing is basic editing, which i don't think it is.
I'm not anti-editing, I like the advanced editing challenges becuase it gives me a chance to do some photo-shopping. I just think basic editing allows too much.
Message edited by author 2010-07-28 09:01:48. |
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07/28/2010 09:06:55 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i was playing around with topaz trial last night, and i'm still not sure how its allowed in basic editing. doesn't it in a way apply an effect filter to the picture? and effect filters are not allowed. |
The rule is based on results. Topaz (and other tonemapping plugins) can be used in a subtle manner to simply give an image some pop. These recent entries of mine both used a modest amount of Topaz Adjust, but I don't think either one screams that it was used.
 
That being said, the limits on use of Topaz in basic have been pushed a fair amount and I have not seen an image get DQ'd over it yet. |
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07/28/2010 09:33:27 AM · #61 |
those are great examples, you cant even tell it was used. In those case i'm fine with it.
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
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07/28/2010 09:47:29 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
I like those too, when they are done well. |
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07/28/2010 10:03:10 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by mike_311:
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
I like those too, when they are done well. |
right, but not under a basic editing rules challenge. |
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07/28/2010 10:49:03 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
those are great examples, you cant even tell it was used. In those case i'm fine with it.
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
It's my opinion that the purpose of basic editing is to force photographers to get it right "in camera" yet I honestly don't think it does that based on the current rules. While I love Topaz and find it really makes a photo pop (without necessarily looking obviously processed), it is NOT what the photographer managed to actually capture in the camera. A photographer can completely screw up white balance or lighting and it doesn't matter, it can be fixed in basic. Perhaps a better photographer (or better camera equipment) could have done a better job with lighting & colors. Allowing such things in basic editing is confusing to me.
So, I agree with you Mike. Basic should be... basic. VERY minimal editing, to truly test the photographer's abilities without editing. Then advanced editing tests the whole process, from soup to nuts (from equipment to shooting to editing). |
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07/28/2010 10:54:32 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by mike_311:
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
I like those too, when they are done well. |
right, but not under a basic editing rules challenge. |
:) I'd bet you're one of my low-ball voters in the "Industrial" challenge :) |
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07/28/2010 11:06:46 AM · #66 |
There is also an undergoing question: why are you doing photos? There is no "good" or "bad" answer to that, everyone has the right to have his own purpose. I suppose one could safely assume all DPC members are willing to improve their skills, and show good photos to viewers (or they wouldn't post their work on a public Internet website, I suppose). Well, in the real world, what most viewers want to see is simply good stuff, whatever the way it was produced.
Think about musicians. A pianist has to practice a lot his scales before being able to play Rachmaninov properly. But the audience wants Rachmaninov, not chromatic scales ;)
So while basic editing is nice to practice the "capture" side of the process, it is not always something that is supposed to be shown as a final product, which frustrates some photographers. An idea would be to restrict basic editing to member-only challenges, without the result being public, just as some internal practice of our orchestra :)
Message edited by author 2010-07-28 11:07:21. |
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07/28/2010 11:13:57 AM · #67 |
I don't vote based on editing techniques, only if it looks good, appeals to me and followed the challenge. I like the topaz look when done right. I don't give if i feel the technique should not be allowed.
I don't know which pic is yours but if i gave it low mark its becuase i didnt like it, not becuase of an editing technique unless it wasn't applied correctly.
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07/28/2010 11:22:17 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by gyaban:
There is also an undergoing question: why are you doing photos? There is no "good" or "bad" answer to that, everyone has the right to have his own purpose. I suppose one could safely assume all DPC members are willing to improve their skills, and show good photos to viewers (or they wouldn't post their work on a public Internet website, I suppose). Well, in the real world, what most viewers want to see is simply good stuff, whatever the way it was produced.
Think about musicians. A pianist has to practice a lot his scales before being able to play Rachmaninov properly. But the audience wants Rachmaninov, not chromatic scales ;)
So while basic editing is nice to practice the "capture" side of the process, it is not always something that is supposed to be shown as a final product, which frustrates some photographers. An idea would be to restrict basic editing to member-only challenges, without the result being public, just as some internal practice of our orchestra :) |
Of course, DPC feels that Advanced challenges are something that drives membership.. So I don't see that happening, ever.
And your final statement would be more accurate if applied to minimal editing.. :) |
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07/28/2010 01:35:04 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Jeb mentioned earlier something along the lines of good photography is framing the shot properly in the first place. I disagree. Sometimes that has more to do with contortion than photography to avoid distracting elements. |
My point was more that sometimes, contortion included, you won't get a shot you can use because of the distracting elements. Then you either get to decide to try to minimize the distractions, or move on and find a better subject. That to me is part of the search for that "right" subject. It limits your choices in the real world sometimes.
I guess that makes it........a challenge.....8>)
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07/28/2010 02:24:10 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Tammster:
Originally posted by mike_311:
those are great examples, you cant even tell it was used. In those case i'm fine with it.
My complaint is with ones where its blatantly obvious. The ones where is stops looking like a photo and more like a faux painting. |
It's my opinion that the purpose of basic editing is to force photographers to get it right "in camera" yet I honestly don't think it does that based on the current rules. While I love Topaz and find it really makes a photo pop (without necessarily looking obviously processed), it is NOT what the photographer managed to actually capture in the camera. A photographer can completely screw up white balance or lighting and it doesn't matter, it can be fixed in basic. Perhaps a better photographer (or better camera equipment) could have done a better job with lighting & colors. Allowing such things in basic editing is confusing to me.
So, I agree with you Mike. Basic should be... basic. VERY minimal editing, to truly test the photographer's abilities without editing. Then advanced editing tests the whole process, from soup to nuts (from equipment to shooting to editing). |
Just to throw an idea out there... How is topaz not a basic (simple) adjustment? You slide some bars and VOILA! image.
To me... that's as basic as it gets. Hell, I use Topaz Detail for batch processing to sharpen my results from RAW. The settings are all low, but it's simple as hell. It's as basic an adjustment as ACR in many ways.
I also take point with the ability to 'screw up white balance and lighting.' Any image captured with proper lighting looks better processed than one faked to do such. You can't manufacture data in an image. Shadow is shadow and blown highlights are blown. Recovery helps, but you can still see it easily. And honestly, I don't get why people have this whole "test photographer's ability" mindset with editing, which is really just the word digital photographers use in place of what photog's of the previous era would call "developing." You think all those big name photogs just plopped out a negative and developed the film using some run of the mill local processer and their image just happened to look exactly how it did based purely on factors prior to development? Oh for the simplicity of the glory days.... |
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07/28/2010 02:25:52 PM · #71 |
I think the membership part of this plays a huge role, there has to be some reason to join and for me and others it is the chance to do the advanced challenges and the free studies, without those two things I can not see a reason for people to become members.
I would also love to see the the site go to 2 member challenges a week and only have one open challenge. doing that would enhance the site for the members but still leave a basic editing challenge once a week for anyone who wants to give the site a try. |
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07/28/2010 02:43:38 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Just to throw an idea out there... How is topaz not a basic (simple) adjustment? You slide some bars and VOILA! image.
To me... that's as basic as it gets. Hell, I use Topaz Detail for batch processing to sharpen my results from RAW. The settings are all low, but it's simple as hell. It's as basic an adjustment as ACR in many ways. |
and herein lies the dilemma, taken to the extreme you can make the image look like a painting. But doing that in PS with a filter is not allowed. you can use topaz to make an HDR style image but if you combine a bracketed image in PS or other software its illegal in basic.
so becuase these tasks can done with slider bars in topaz they should be legal?
and that brings us back to point of the thread, why not just get rid of basic?
and PapaBob. i'd like to see more member challenges as well.
Message edited by author 2010-07-28 14:47:46. |
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07/28/2010 04:16:02 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i was playing around with topaz trial last night, and i'm still not sure how its allowed in basic editing.
doesn't it in a way apply an effect filter to the picture? and effect filters are not allowed. |
I would disallow it in Basic. I've always thought it was ridiculous to allow it. It changes an image way too much for it to be seen as an entry in a basic editing challenge.
Let's have a vote on it Langdon. (as if he reads these forums) lol |
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07/28/2010 04:22:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by mike_311:
i was playing around with topaz trial last night, and i'm still not sure how its allowed in basic editing.
doesn't it in a way apply an effect filter to the picture? and effect filters are not allowed. |
I would disallow it in Basic. I've always thought it was ridiculous to allow it. It changes an image way too much for it to be seen as an entry in a basic editing challenge.
Let's have a vote on it Langdon. (as if he reads these forums) lol |
What about using Photomatix? Ban that too? Well, should we then ban the shadow/highlight too tool?
Instead, maybe we should just ask for more SOTC challenges. I don't find basic rules to be wanting. I like them quite a bit - and when I enter advanced challenges, I definately do feel a need to spot edit, dodge/burn, clone, sharpen, hue/sat. etc.. I like to do that sometimes, but I also enjoy just giving the photo a bit of pop and sending it on it's way...
I've never seen a SOTC challenge (minimum editing rules), but you can bet that I will enter the first one that pops up, even if the subject is something I'd never shoot otherwise. |
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07/28/2010 04:23:17 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by mike_311:
i was playing around with topaz trial last night, and i'm still not sure how its allowed in basic editing.
doesn't it in a way apply an effect filter to the picture? and effect filters are not allowed. |
I would disallow it in Basic. I've always thought it was ridiculous to allow it. It changes an image way too much for it to be seen as an entry in a basic editing challenge.
Let's have a vote on it Langdon. (as if he reads these forums) lol |
The funny thing is, I was very happy when Topaz was allowed in basic because it gave me more options and I really enjoy what Topaz can do to many photos. However, in an academic argument, it doesn't seem like it SHOULD be allowed in basic. I really think it affects a picture much more than a little dodging or burning or selective editing does. |
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