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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Maybe it's time to retire Basic Rules permanently?
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07/27/2010 12:30:23 PM · #26
If you see something you want to shoot - you should shoot it regardless of basic or advanced editing. Nobody says you have to enter a challenge with it. Shoot it for yourself.

edited for typo

Message edited by author 2010-07-27 12:30:51.
07/27/2010 12:38:52 PM · #27
Originally posted by gyaban:

This is obviously a touchy subject, since there are so many passionate opinions about it.

Anyway, I for one disagree that processing and photography should be considered as absolutely separated things. In the end, a photo you take has to be viewed by people, which implies some kind of processing... even printing is some kind of processing! One can choose some kind of ink for nice deep blacks, some kind of paper for brightness, etc.

Here on DPC photos are mostly viewed on computer screens, which should be taken into account imo, in order to choose a suitable contrast level, sharpen edges depending on the chosen resolution, etc. In a way, I don't understand people that would like a "straight out of the camera" challenge. The raw material is *always* processed in some way! Even "old-fashioned" photos on films have to be bathed in various chemicals, which affect the rendering of the final image.

However, that said, I also agree that a good photo is already good without much processing. Subject, framing, light, etc. are absolutely capital. But it is often (if not always) possible to even enhance it with some sort of processing, like Brent said (minor cloning would be one way to do so in some cases, or subtle dodge/burning in some others, etc.) And it can be very frustrating to NOT do that little enhancement, due to some sort of rule, even though you perfectly know how to do it. So I also understand people not willing to comply with these rules, I think it is a completely respectable choice. Look at websites like 1x.com, most people would agree in saying that the photos here are quite good... well most of them (all?) are processed to some extend.


What he said!
07/27/2010 12:42:56 PM · #28
Originally posted by NeVeRyn:

Maybe there just needs to be a sister site - DEChallenge for Digital Editing Challenge... For those who want to edit more... it is photo challenge after all not illustration challenge...


Come on now Erik, you obviously didn't read my original post here :-) I am not asking that DPC turn into an editing challenge. I would just like to make minor enhancements now and then when appropriate. Why do people need to see power lines in my image? My camera doesn't have the dynamic range that my own eyes have, why can't I tastefully dodge and burn once in a while to better mimic what I saw with my own eyes?
Lets keep in mind people, many of the images you see in the basic galleries are tweaked the heck out of with Topaz filters. So any thought that they are more pure and true to the natural scene kind of flies out the window don't you think?
07/27/2010 12:50:18 PM · #29
Originally posted by Brent_S:



Come on now Erik, you obviously didn't read my original post here :-) I am not asking that DPC turn into an editing challenge. I would just like to make minor enhancements now and then when appropriate. Why do people need to see power lines in my image? My camera doesn't have the dynamic range that my own eyes have, why can't I tastefully dodge and burn once in a while to better mimic what I saw with my own eyes?
Lets keep in mind people, many of the images you see in the basic galleries are tweaked the heck out of with Topaz filters. So any thought that they are more pure and true to the natural scene kind of flies out the window don't you think?


Actually I did - and I agree for the most part. I have no problem with tweaking images - I do it myself - for my own use... Being a rank amateur though, I find I need to concentrate and getting the good image to start with first - so while I don't score well in comparison to others, I try to get more out of the shot and less out of the computer. I like the challenges - they are just that - a challenge to improve my skills with the camera.
07/27/2010 12:55:20 PM · #30
I agree with you Brent, minor cloning and such is perfectly fine, but Topaz filters shouldn't be allowed in basic, becuase once you are using a plugin its not longer basic editing.

basic editing should be cleaning up a photo, not changing its appearance.

i hate when i see topaz adjusted images win ribbons in basic, becuase they probably would not have won without topaz. i will continue on my advocacy that topaz be banned in basic.
07/27/2010 01:10:07 PM · #31
Originally posted by NeVeRyn:

Being a rank amateur though, I find I need to concentrate and getting the good image to start with first - so while I don't score well in comparison to others, I try to get more out of the shot and less out of the computer. I like the challenges - they are just that - a challenge to improve my skills with the camera.


That doesnt change once you learn Photoshop. Photoshop cant correct a bad photo. The challenges are for photography, which includes the capture and the processing of photos. I find that too many rules limits creativity.
07/27/2010 01:35:42 PM · #32
I can agree with that VitaminB. Rules can limit creativity - they can also improve it... I sometimes do personal challenges where I will limit myself to one lens for a couple weeks - just to push the limits of what I can accomplish with limited resources. Wish I could say that it helped... ;-)

Edit: typos

Message edited by author 2010-07-27 13:37:08.
07/27/2010 01:56:48 PM · #33
Isn't part of the challenge aspect to do your very level best within the ruleset?

Isn't that what makes you improve?

I'm very proud of the fact that my last ribbon was in a Basic challenge. I feel that it's a reflection on how far I've come since my 3.8 in my very first challenge.
07/27/2010 02:10:59 PM · #34
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Isn't part of the challenge aspect to do your very level best within the ruleset?

Isn't that what makes you improve?

I'm very proud of the fact that my last ribbon was in a Basic challenge. I feel that it's a reflection on how far I've come since my 3.8 in my very first challenge.


Yes.... but then again, why not make all challenges SOTC? That would really challenge us, right? The reason we would not like that (generally) is that our true goal is to make beautiful photos. I, too, get frustrated when I have what I think is a perfect shot, except for something stupid (like power lines). I end up processing two pictures, one for the challenge & one for my portfolio because I don't want substandard photos in my portfolio.

Either way, I'm challenged. Personally, I'd rather be challenged to do my best than challenged to make due.
07/27/2010 04:07:22 PM · #35
Originally posted by Tammster:

Yes.... but then again, why not make all challenges SOTC? That would really challenge us, right? The reason we would not like that (generally) is that our true goal is to make beautiful photos. I, too, get frustrated when I have what I think is a perfect shot, except for something stupid (like power lines). I end up processing two pictures, one for the challenge & one for my portfolio because I don't want substandard photos in my portfolio.

Either way, I'm challenged. Personally, I'd rather be challenged to do my best than challenged to make due.

When you talk about something like the perfect shot, except for the power lines, that's composition, and you're using post-processing to fix something that really should be done when the shot is framed. I know there are times when you simply cannot get the shot because of extraneous garbage in the frame, but that's also what has made me a better photographer over time. I'm so much more cognizant of distractions and perspectives when I compose an image than I was two and more years ago. I find the longer I work at it, the better, and more second nature I get at searching the frame as I'm composing the image. Ideally, the better the image composition, the less PP you have to do.
07/27/2010 04:48:54 PM · #36
For me, whenever I shoot now, I shoot with an edit in mind and the editing is absolutely part of the same creative process. I often 'see' the edit at the point of capture and I really enjoy the crafting of that vision from the raw (pun intended) image.

Of the two phases, I feel more creative in the post processing phase - It is where a capture of a scene becomes something more; a manifestation of an artistic aspiration. For me, it is this whole process that defines (modern?) photography - the capture itself is partial.

Consequently, the ability to have the greater set of creative choices will always(?) produce a better result. That isn't to say I prefer 'expert' challenges - compositing is a completely different proposition all together.

Surprisingly perhaps, I can see the appeal of minimal editing - it has a pure aim. Basic is trickier to suppor thought, quite transformational adjustments are permitted but they are often suboptimal compared to 'advanced'.

Just my two cents worth.
07/27/2010 05:19:04 PM · #37
Advanced editing does not preclude those who choose to impose basic or no editing restrictions on themselves from doing so. And to argue that it would make them less competitive is to argue in favor of the OP's point, IMO. Down with Basic.
07/27/2010 05:32:35 PM · #38
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Advanced editing does not preclude those who choose to impose basic or no editing restrictions on themselves from doing so. And to argue that it would make them less competitive is to argue in favor of the OP's point, IMO. Down with Basic.


And do you also advocate calculators instead of basic math skills?
07/27/2010 05:33:44 PM · #39
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by Jac:

I totally disagree with the original post. Totally!!!

Learning photography DOES NOT include learning Photoshop or any other graphics app.


I disagree with your disagreement. It has it's place and those who make money with it in the real world will use the tools that produce what sells.

As much as I like the extra flexibility and choices that I have with advanced editing, basic editing makes me concentrate on improving my skills at the camera end of the equation. I like the current mix of both.


Let me rephrase because nobody got it.

You do not need Photoshop to produce a great image.

I'm all for Basic Editing and would like to see more challenges that restrict editing.

Clear enough?

Sheesh!
07/27/2010 08:18:24 PM · #40
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Tammster:

Yes.... but then again, why not make all challenges SOTC? That would really challenge us, right? The reason we would not like that (generally) is that our true goal is to make beautiful photos. I, too, get frustrated when I have what I think is a perfect shot, except for something stupid (like power lines). I end up processing two pictures, one for the challenge & one for my portfolio because I don't want substandard photos in my portfolio.

Either way, I'm challenged. Personally, I'd rather be challenged to do my best than challenged to make due.


When you talk about something like the perfect shot, except for the power lines, that's composition, and you're using post-processing to fix something that really should be done when the shot is framed. I know there are times when you simply cannot get the shot because of extraneous garbage in the frame, but that's also what has made me a better photographer over time. I'm so much more cognizant of distractions and perspectives when I compose an image than I was two and more years ago. I find the longer I work at it, the better, and more second nature I get at searching the frame as I'm composing the image. Ideally, the better the image composition, the less PP you have to do.


So... Why not have expert editing challenges, advanced challenges and SOTC challenges. Basic takes the fun out of editing.
07/27/2010 08:43:26 PM · #41
No post processing whatsoever..

07/27/2010 09:10:17 PM · #42
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by Jac:

I totally disagree with the original post. Totally!!!

Learning photography DOES NOT include learning Photoshop or any other graphics app.


I disagree with your disagreement. It has it's place and those who make money with it in the real world will use the tools that produce what sells.

As much as I like the extra flexibility and choices that I have with advanced editing, basic editing makes me concentrate on improving my skills at the camera end of the equation. I like the current mix of both.


Let me rephrase because nobody got it.

You do not need Photoshop to produce a great image.

I'm all for Basic Editing and would like to see more challenges that restrict editing.

Clear enough?

Sheesh!


*applauding* All the PS in the world will not save a crappy photo, I learned that long ago.

Now I have nothing against Advanced, but let's face it, when you have the freedom to pp together the best of 10 images to create THE perfect image, along with the freedom to spot-edit....well....that's a helluva lot of room to improve a shot.

Basic editing, imho, means you have to take a better image, because it is just one capture, and no spot editing is allowed. Hell, pretty much all my Advanced entries are done to Basic rules, with maybe some spot editing, and often not even that.

Right now in Mythical, which of course is Expert editing, I am getting my ass handed to me on a platter. But I expected that, because my PS skills are very rudimentary.

And let's face it, PS takes awhile to learn. I have enough on my own plate, thankyaverymuch, and there are several great PS wizards here whom I do ask for help. But overall, I much prefer taking better photos, running them through PS only to enhance what was already captured, and nothing more.

Long live Basic!

*ducking flames*

Message edited by author 2010-07-27 22:26:28.
07/27/2010 09:13:04 PM · #43
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Isn't part of the challenge aspect to do your very level best within the ruleset?

Isn't that what makes you improve?

I'm very proud of the fact that my last ribbon was in a Basic challenge. I feel that it's a reflection on how far I've come since my 3.8 in my very first challenge.


Again, I need the 'I like this post' button:-)
07/27/2010 09:13:38 PM · #44
Originally posted by Simms:

No post processing whatsoever..


yes. Yes. YES:-)
07/27/2010 10:10:27 PM · #45
Originally posted by Tammster:

So... Why not have expert editing challenges, advanced challenges and SOTC challenges. Basic takes the fun out of editing.

If you're game for SOTC challenges, I'm at a complete loss to understand why you're so vehemently opposed to Basic.

All Basic...all images I was quite pleased with.....
          


It just seems to me that it makes the emphasis more on the subject and composition. I know there are always lively discussions on what's legal in Basic, but I know I can relax because I am simply not one who pushes the envelope with my editing. I feel like I have a better shot at a well received image within the Basic ruleset.
07/27/2010 11:45:21 PM · #46
We seek "challenges" in DPC, so you can see basic editing as a tough challenge.
07/27/2010 11:52:10 PM · #47
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Hell, and here I've been advocating for a "straight from the camera" challenge (minimum editing..)..

I like the more restrictive rules as they force me to learn neat tricks that work with global (fast) adjustments.


amen...
07/27/2010 11:53:31 PM · #48
Originally posted by Deen:

We seek "challenges" in DPC, so you can see basic editing as a tough challenge.


amen to this too!
07/28/2010 12:17:25 AM · #49
Again, I'll repeat - if some of you are soooo into basic editing, nothing is stopping you from entering a basic edited photo (or not edited) in ANY challenge. But the reverse is not true.

eta: if all challenges were advanced, you could even put the ever-annoying "crop only!" in your title to impress the voters.

Message edited by author 2010-07-28 00:18:31.
07/28/2010 01:10:41 AM · #50
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

to impress the voters.


That one made me chuckle!
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