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05/19/2010 07:50:49 AM · #1 |
I'm just Rantin' & Ravin' to ask people to please leave a comment- not on every photo, but certainly those that you can see something is clearly wrong with it or extremely right with it. (And try to be tactful!!)
I certainly know that this is not a new topic here at DPC (Perhaps the most discussed!!). Lately I have been bouncing around from thread to thread listening to the majority of the people on here complaining about how voters will low ball their photos but never tell them why. Thesecomment dodgers are usually voting to either bring everyone elses photo down because they are invloved in the challenge, or to boost up a friend's photo to help them out. either way, when does any photo ever taken deserve a 1? Perhaps if it is completely over exposed, or completely under exposed, but never if an image comes forth.
This has always been the way of dpc, and certainly not what this site is all about either. We're all here to learn- and if a photo really deserves a 1,2,3 or even a 4 as a score, certainly those people deserve some kind of comment as to why. one word, two words, something, anything to help them improve their photos. Standard voting is usually based off of a 5: if it meets the challenge, is in focus, and composition is there, then it is a basic shot worthy of a 5 (maybe a 4 if "snapshotish"). Anything more; really expert DOF or extremely creative, perfect lighting, and it goes up with every added dimension to the photo. Anything less, and it goes down. Simple right.
So please vote but more importantly, help a buddy out and leave a comment!
Thanks.
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05/19/2010 08:02:52 AM · #2 |
No one "deserves" a comment, people who give comments set aside their time to do so, as I'm sure you know given that your comments made are higher than those received.
I don't think people should have to justify why they vote low either. There's a full voting scale there, let people use it. If you bash people every time they give out a 1,2 or 3 and eventually everyone stops doing it, then what happens next, 4 and 5 are the low votes, people complain when they get 4s and 5s with no comment, and on and on. No one likes getting 1's, but hey, that's life, some you win, some you lose.
I'm getting pretty tired of people complaining about either not getting comments, not getting the right sort of comments, not getting comments on low votes, etc, etc, and in fact it's one of the reasons I haven't commented much recently is that people are just never happy about it!
I say let the voters vote, let the commenters comment, take what you get and enjoy it. If you feel you need more feedback on a particular picture, you can always post it in the forums after a challenge.
Oh and BTW, I'm not having a go at the OP, just the whole attitude about comments recently in general.
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05/19/2010 08:30:50 AM · #3 |
I pretty much just agree with  Covert_Oddity. There is not necessarily an expectation of comments. Sometimes photos don't compell us to say anything about them. They don't resonate, so how can we comment?
Also, your explanation of voting criteria is simply your own voting criteria, and you're trying to apply it to everybody else. You also make a huge assumption with this comment: Thesecomment dodgers are usually voting to either bring everyone elses photo down because they are invloved in the challenge, or to boost up a friend's photo to help them out.
I've voted people a 1, and every other number on the spectrum. I've never voted up a friend's photo, and in fact, I don't ever vote in challenges that I enter. I agree, we should all endeavor to comment as much as we are able to. But honestly... how do complaints about people placing low votes in the first place encourage them to justify themselves through commentary? Have they not already been vilified as "comment dodgers" and "friend voters"?
The other thing is that "tactful" sometimes precludes honesty here. Some people do not actually want honest critique, and then send contrary PM's after the fact. Before we release the hounds after those who vote low, perhaps we should release them after those who cannot accept that their photo may garner a low vote from some individuals...variety is the spice of life, people. |
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05/19/2010 08:32:42 AM · #4 |
Well here's the thing, you say not everyone deserves a comment; you are absolutely right, not everyone deserves a comment. Those people that do deserve a comment are those people that need the improvement the most and that's what my point is. Most people that leave a comment are the ones who say, "nice shot" or "this should win" on photos that are obviously good. That's Great and certainly appreciated, but that's leaving a comment for those that are great shots, what about those that are trying to improve to get to that point in their hobby, to find out what's wrong with those photos? These are the people that deserve the comments.
And again you are right, you can't please everyone. But to reiterate, all you can do is to try and create as even a playing field as possible and help out those people that need it the most to take this hobby to its highest level possible.
Does everyone deserve a comment- no, does someone who was just voted a 1 or a 2 deserve a quick comment?- Absolutely. Help a Buddy out.
I understand that recently the attitude has come out again about the comments(Usually around league time with so many entries in each challenge), and that was the reason for this thread- to see what's going on out there.
(Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts too!)
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05/19/2010 08:34:09 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
No one "deserves" a comment, people who give comments set aside their time to do so, as I'm sure you know given that your comments made are higher than those received.
I don't think people should have to justify why they vote low either. There's a full voting scale there, let people use it. If you bash people every time they give out a 1,2 or 3 and eventually everyone stops doing it, then what happens next, 4 and 5 are the low votes, people complain when they get 4s and 5s with no comment, and on and on. No one likes getting 1's, but hey, that's life, some you win, some you lose.
I'm getting pretty tired of people complaining about either not getting comments, not getting the right sort of comments, not getting comments on low votes, etc, etc, and in fact it's one of the reasons I haven't commented much recently is that people are just never happy about it!
I say let the voters vote, let the commenters comment, take what you get and enjoy it. If you feel you need more feedback on a particular picture, you can always post it in the forums after a challenge.
Oh and BTW, I'm not having a go at the OP, just the whole attitude about comments recently in general. |
I second this.
Just use what you got, score, comments, lack of comments and try to improve on it.
Frankly, these threads do not inspire me to comment at all, not one bit. Totally fed up with all the complaining going on about comments or the lack of. We're not all critics who have time to comment on images all day long. People have lives and DPC is not a job, although sometimes it feels like it. |
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05/19/2010 08:36:38 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I pretty much just agree with Covert_Oddity. There is not necessarily an expectation of comments. Sometimes photos don't compell us to say anything about them. They don't resonate, so how can we comment?
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Well, You can say "This photo just does not resonate a strong emotion". Or "Photo lacks emotion". Or "Just doesn't have the WOW factor it needs". Something for them to know that it doesn't give the viewer any emotion. Just to help 'em out that's all.
And you're right- I shouldn't have sterotyped all the voters who give 1's. sorry about that.
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05/19/2010 08:42:21 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Jac:
We're not all critics who have time to comment on images all day long. People have lives and DPC is not a job, although sometimes it feels like it. |
I understand completely, it takes alot to comment- alot of time, alot of effort, alot of fore-thought, but its so easy to vote a photo 1 or 2 by the press of a button. no one said it was easy to leave comments- but it is certainly helpful to those who need it. Consider it DPC Charity work- not everyone wants or appreciates your help, but if you constantly give it anyway to just help out, you may effect some of the photographer out there and help out a handful of them that really do appreciate it. Just like you did with this thread- I appreciate everyones response to whats going on So thank you, and just try your best to help, that's all.
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05/19/2010 08:42:55 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by LaMas:
And again you are right, you can't please everyone. But to reiterate, all you can do is to try and create as even a playing field as possible and help out those people that need it the most to take this hobby to its highest level possible.
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This is a learning site but the learning is up to you, it's your responsibility to take what you get and improve. You're saying that we should help each other out like it was our duty to do so. You didn't sign up as a student in a photography course and we're not teachers. We're all here for the same reason, we love what we do and learn from others. I learn by looking at the images here, the comments are superfluous and are so brief that you're not going to learn much from them anyway.
You're a photographer, learn from looking and observing the light source, angle, quantity, colour, intensity and improve from there. Discern the depth of field used, read the details about the specs of the image you like, what ISO was used, what focal length, lens, filter. Improve your photoshop skills. You don't need comments to improve on DPC. There are lots of other ways to learn here. Just open your eyes mate. :D
Message edited by author 2010-05-19 08:47:48. |
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05/19/2010 08:52:58 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Jac:
You don't need comments to improve on DPC. There are lots of other ways to learn here. Just open your eyes mate. :D |
Very many avenues to learn; the tutorials are good, these threads are great, and comments are another way. Everyone learns differently. But we are all students here. Students learning from students. That's why it is important to keep all these avenues open for the many different styles of learning, whether tutorial, discussion or critique.
Speaking of which, are there any other Avenues we can take to get people to learn techniques of photography aside from these; Tutorials, Discussion, Comments?
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05/19/2010 08:53:40 AM · #10 |
| I agree, but also have (somewhat) accepted that it just is not going to happen. You have a high comment to vote ratio, so you are already doing the best thing you can to resolve the problem by setting an example. |
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05/19/2010 08:54:44 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by LaMas:
Speaking of which, are there any other Avenues we can take to get people to learn techniques of photography aside from these; Tutorials, Discussion, Comments? |
Side challenges are great for learning new things and experimenting without getting blasted by low votes. |
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05/19/2010 09:13:17 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I agree, but also have (somewhat) accepted that it just is not going to happen. You have a high comment to vote ratio, so you are already doing the best thing you can to resolve the problem by setting an example. |
I think if anyone is setting an example it's you with the amount of comments you've made. Jeez!!
Anyway- Side challenges, I forgot about all about those. Side challenges are a great way to learn for the overly frustrated photographers. (PS- Nice Recent Photos too! your getting some new top scorers in there! Nice work)
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05/19/2010 09:22:00 AM · #13 |
| I mostly quit commenting on challenge entries because I'm sick of getting PM's from the photographer ... telling me how I'm wrong and that the image is better than it really is ... the people who need the comments/help the most, usually aren't the ones who are easily able to receive the constructive criticism. |
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05/19/2010 09:29:05 AM · #14 |
Personally, I love to comment. I try to do my part, but I have waned in my interest in commenting on large chunks of challenge entries in the past 6 months or so.
One of the things that was brought up before was how photographers are looking for comments on technical issues/ constructive criticism. I think there is a good percentage of people here that do want those type comments, but I have found that is not as large a majority as you are assuming. There were some recent threads from some folks that specifically DON'T WANT comments about perceived technical issues/ compositional problems/ etc. Not everyone is here for the same reason. Some are here to learn, others to compete, others to simply show what they see.
Comment if you wish, but remember that each of us have their own viewpoints, and not everyone here wants to heer yours (or mine for that matter!). |
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05/19/2010 09:30:56 AM · #15 |
I seldom reply to a comment, unless the comment is in the form of a question. And I am very reluctant to reply during a challenge, unless it seems to me that the commenter really wants a reply.
Sometimes a low scoring image, just doesn't inspire a comment. When the image appears to be one that the photographer just tossed off to have an entry, it seems to serve no purpose to comment "Did you even try?".
I am one of those who believes the burden is on the photographer to communicate his/her message clearly and effectively. I feel it is no more fair to blame the voters for "not getting it", than it is to speak before a crowd in a language they do not understan and blame them for not understading me.
When I have an image with zero comments, and it has happened, I take it as it was not even interesting enough to others to discuss. That it did not generate any real reaction at all. Then it is up to me to either make my next image more interesting to others, or be satisified with what am doing.
If you don't want to hear the reactions of others, this is the wrong place to be. If you enter a challenge, that's what it is all about. If you just want to display pictures, then there are plenty of places that provide free web hosting where you can create a comment-less site.
Message edited by author 2010-05-19 09:33:40.
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05/19/2010 09:38:01 AM · #16 |
I was commenting alot there for awhile - but I had more time then. Now that our busy season is over I plan to leaving lots of comments again. I do this as revenge for not getting many comments myself. (insert evil laugh here)
But truely, commenting helps you learn. It makes you slow down and take time to really look at the picture.
Sometimes its hard though to come up something other than, "nice shot" but I will leave that as a comment also because I enjoy getting those too. |
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05/19/2010 10:00:13 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Luci11e:
I was commenting alot there for awhile - but I had more time then. Now that our busy season is over I plan to leaving lots of comments again. I do this as revenge for not getting many comments myself. (insert evil laugh here)
But truely, commenting helps you learn. It makes you slow down and take time to really look at the picture.
Sometimes its hard though to come up something other than, "nice shot" but I will leave that as a comment also because I enjoy getting those too. |
I think it's spelled mwahahahahaaaaa... or something like that. You give it your best effort, that is the important thing. You bring up a good point too... you learn a lot just from leaving comments, Making you look more intently than just a quick glance and a vote. Those that want to learn more should be the ones to comment more!! Someone spread the word on that one!LOL |
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05/19/2010 10:40:56 AM · #18 |
Count your blessings, on 1x.com I left a comment for a guy complimenting him on his shot and they deleted my comment, they seem to moderate comments and only allow critiques, you may enjoy that site more although you gotta be pretty good to get your shots posted there.
Message edited by author 2010-05-19 10:41:16. |
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05/19/2010 12:40:53 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by LaMas:
Originally posted by Jac:
You don't need comments to improve on DPC. There are lots of other ways to learn here. Just open your eyes mate. :D |
Very many avenues to learn; the tutorials are good, these threads are great, and comments are another way. Everyone learns differently. But we are all students here. Students learning from students. That's why it is important to keep all these avenues open for the many different styles of learning, whether tutorial, discussion or critique.
Speaking of which, are there any other Avenues we can take to get people to learn techniques of photography aside from these; Tutorials, Discussion, Comments? |
I suspect you've already discovered this but you actually learn more from commenting on other's photos than from the comments received. |
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05/19/2010 12:51:54 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Count your blessings, on 1x.com I left a comment for a guy complimenting him on his shot and they deleted my comment, they seem to moderate comments and only allow critiques... |
Huh? There are literally thousands of compliment comments at 1x along the lines of "Great!", Fantastico!", etc. I'm looking at one right now that was left 36 minutes ago that reads "That's really great,well done...". I've got dozens of them myself. To see comments on photos, though, you have to be logged in. Maybe you weren't? |
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05/19/2010 12:55:51 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Count your blessings, on 1x.com I left a comment for a guy complimenting him on his shot and they deleted my comment, they seem to moderate comments and only allow critiques... |
Huh? There are literally thousands of compliment comments at 1x along the lines of "Great!", Fantastico!", etc. I'm looking at one right now that was left 36 minutes ago that reads "That's really great,well done...". I've got dozens of them myself. To see comments on photos, though, you have to be logged in. Maybe you weren't? |
maybe its only those in voting, but i had a moderator tell me my comment had been deleted |
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05/19/2010 12:58:07 PM · #22 |
I think way too many people on this website think they have a "Right" to comments. You really don't. It especially bugs me when people complain about comments when they themselves do not leave comments.
I have been to many other photography websites, and THIS is the site where I receive the MOST comments! For instance at deviantart, I can go for 6 or 7 submissions in a row without ever receiving a comment on one. Some of those images include things I have submitted here and received 5 or 6 comments for just that image.
People have a right to not like your image. And people have a right to not waste their time trying to explain why they hate it. Yes, its frustrating, but just think...YOU have that right too. Would you like to comment on every image that you don't like? |
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05/19/2010 01:03:27 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Fiora:
I think way too many people on this website think they have a "Right" to comments. You really don't. It especially bugs me when people complain about comments when they themselves do not leave comments. ... And people have a right to not waste their time trying to explain why they hate it. Yes, its frustrating, but just think...YOU have that right too. Would you like to comment on every image that you don't like? |
Nuf said. |
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05/19/2010 02:10:15 PM · #24 |
Why do you care what the extremely low voters think? They obviously don't get what you were trying to do, so why waste your time worrying about them, or demanding that they justify their vote?
In most challenges, I'm way more troubled when my entry doesn't get a handful of 8s 9s or 10s than I am if it gets dozens of 1s 2s and 3s, because then I know that my image failed to connect with anyone. Just let those low votes slide off your back. |
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05/19/2010 09:37:18 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by LaMas:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I pretty much just agree with Covert_Oddity. There is not necessarily an expectation of comments. Sometimes photos don't compell us to say anything about them. They don't resonate, so how can we comment?
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Well, You can say "This photo just does not resonate a strong emotion". Or "Photo lacks emotion". Or "Just doesn't have the WOW factor it needs". Something for them to know that it doesn't give the viewer any emotion. Just to help 'em out that's all.
And you're right- I shouldn't have sterotyped all the voters who give 1's. sorry about that. |
Is "this photo just does not resonate with me" not akin to the antithesis of "nice shot," and devoid of direction for the budding photographer? How do you teach somebody to make a photo that resonates with everybody? You can't, because different photos appeal to different people in different ways. Maybe it reminds them of their childhood, or maybe it makes them ponder.
I agree with you in general though, that more commenting is a good thing. But it really is time consuming to provide quality feedback, and you have to accept that many times it will be disregarded. Your charity analogy is quite fitting, really.
But I want to emphasize this:
The other thing is that "tactful" sometimes precludes honesty here. Some people do not actually want honest critique, and then send contrary PM's after the fact. Before we release the hounds after those who vote low, perhaps we should release them after those who cannot accept that their photo may garner a low vote from some individuals...variety is the spice of life, people.
We should attempt to create an environment that encourages comments instead of discourages them. Look at the number of people here who have gotten disgruntled responses. They aren't necessarily a huge number of people, but it still definitely happens. And part of growing is understanding criticism. Low votes are a criticism in and of themselves, and should be seen as such instead of dismissed outright. A vote of 10 is the same as "awesome shot." |
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